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May 5, 2004
How To Meet Women At ISRU, Part 1

by Gillette aka Hassan[uddin] Khaja

With the coming summer, certainly there are brothers who will take the time to reflect on their growth as a Muslim, and will spend their free time trying to strengthen and increase their eman. Some might even travel to study in one of the many Islamic universities, offering a variety of subjects to learn about. Indeed, there is great blessing in travelling for the sake of knowledge. There is even more blessing in travelling for the sake of Islamic knowledge, as a means to pleasing Allah (SWT).

However, for the rest of the brothers, this will be a time to go to conventions/conferences/Muslim-but-not-Islamic gatherings to fine-tune their skills at meeting women. This is an especially important time in the life of a Muslim student at Rutgers because ISRU put up that damned partition.

Of course, the status of the partition is always in question, so it is advisable for the brothers to think optimistically. In light of this optimism, here is a comprehensive treatise on meeting women at ISRU.

The Muslim should always be between hope and fear, so here's to hoping that the partition comes down. If it does, then this makes it much easier to start looking for sisters to "marry." At all costs, the brothers must avoid the front seat, closest to the center ("The Taqwa Seat"). This seat sits right in front of the speaker, so any brother who sits there has no choice but to look at the speaker, unless they don't fear getting caught, in which case they would be shameless faasiqoon, but that's besides the point.

But, as always, the believer must have hope, and there's always hope. The speaker doesn't always sit in such a position that he's right in front of The Taqwa Seat. If the brother sitting in The Seat is so fortunate that the speaker is to the right of the ameer, then the brother's head is turned far enough that the sisters come in his field of vision.

Under the same rules about the turn of the head, the brother, as he moves farther away from The Taqwa Seat, improves his field of vision. As he moves back, his view of the sisters improves, until he gets all the way back. In the back row, as he moves farther to the right, his field of vision optimizes more, since he has to turn his head more, until he gets to the coveted "Hot Seats", the seats up against the wall. In other words, the farther right and the farther back, the more optimal the field of vision.

But, in the seats against the wall, there is great advantage, as sometimes the whole body inevitably turns, making it that much easier on the neck to look at the speaker AND the sisters.

In this spirit, the most coveted seat in the room is the front row seat, against the wall ("The Player's Seat). In this seat, the brother will be facing (head and body) the speaker, and it is only a matter of a few-degree turn in which he can look at the sisters. In fact, even with a partition - since it only covers so much - the brother can stare at the sisters - unless there are some sisters who have that damned shyness thing, in which case they'll be hidden from him as much as possible.


of and relating to...
Gillette said

I'd like to address the issue of possibly calling to evil with this article in advance. I just wanted to make it abundantly clear, with this article, that there are real consequences for not taking appropriate measures at the Islamic gathering. Every guy might not think like this, but Muslims aren't ones to take risks, abandonning sunnah methods to achieve sunnah ends.

on May 5, 2004 12:16 AM
Mostafa ibn Mohamed Khalifa said

Asalaamu `alaikum,

Now Hassan, you know very well that the best seat in ISRU is the one where you get the best view of me, the Bearded Dictator ;)

In all seriousness, if you want to go to an Islamic setup, then you need to register for the upcoming AlMaghrib seminar, BREACH OF COVENANT: Tafseer Surat AlBaqarah.

On the first day, we go over class rules and etiquette. One of them is "Qiblah". We have brothers sitting in front, sisters sitting in the back. Brothers must face the front at all times, even if a sister is asking a question during the Q&A periods of the class schedule. The focus is completely on `ilm (knowledge). And I sit in the front, so all eyes are on me ;) (yet again)!

So register now, before all the seats in the class are gone --

http://www.almaghrib.org/BOC1.html

on May 5, 2004 12:22 AM
Justoju said

One thing you left out--There is a trade-off between seeing the sisters and being seen BY the sisters.

on May 5, 2004 12:24 AM
Faisal Akhtar said

Nah I don't agree. The Taqwa seat is the one to the most back and to the right. That way, the partition is always blocking your vision so no chances of accidental glances and you can look at the speaker or stretch your neck muscles without fear. The problem with the Taqwa seat being to the front and left is the problem of peripheral vision and the possibility that the sisters can look at you even if you can't look at them.

Phew gaze lowering can be very technical.

on May 5, 2004 12:29 AM
Justoju said

Personally, I think the taqwa seat is the speaker's or ameer's seat since there is NO WAY to see the sisters WITHOUT getting caught by EVERYONE in the room...

on May 5, 2004 12:32 AM
Talal said

To Sister Justoju's statement:

Word.

Those brothers do set the way, mashaAllah.

on May 5, 2004 12:34 AM
Mostafa Ibn Mohamed Khalifa said

Asalaamu `alaikum,

So if I combine Justoju's logic with mine, then the best time for ISRU was when I was Amir!!!

Sign up for the class where all the seats are TAQWA SEATS --

http://www.almaghrib.org/BOC1.html

on May 5, 2004 12:41 AM
Justoju said

You KNOW at other MSA's (like Rutgers-Newark's) the brothers sit in the front while the sisters sit in the back--much like the qibla set-up for the almaghrib classes...why doesnt ISRU adopt the same setup and not worry about the divider and those that contest it?

...though, it would make it 100% easier for the sisters to check out the brothers and it wouldnt really help them lower THEIR gazes any...

on May 5, 2004 12:47 AM
Talal said

To be incredibly redundant:

To Sister Justoju's statement:

Word.

Allahu A'lam that such an idea has been floundering in the "ISRU Circle"

and umm... Thursday's post is gonna be craaaaaaaaazy yo ;)


on May 5, 2004 12:48 AM
Justoju said

I was wondering if anyone knew more on the fiqh of women staring at non-mahram speakers/shuyukh.

...cuz like technically they arent your mahram so dont you still have to lower your gaze?

on May 5, 2004 1:09 AM
Justoju said

"a comprehensive treatise on meeting women at ISRU"

Since this part was only about ogling, I guess the piece on "meeting" will be in the next part?

on May 5, 2004 3:07 AM
Gillette said

ibn 'Uthaymeen http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=49038&dgn=4 said that women are allowed to look at non-mahram men when there is no fear of desire, but that seems too arbitrary.

there's the sense, islamically, that men are weaker than women. women have to cover more. they can't do too much to turn men's heads (putting on perfume, wearing incredibly loud shoes, wearing flashy or eye-catching clothing). there's more compulsion upon them to be concise and firm with their speech because men are more likely to get turned on by a woman's voice.

on May 5, 2004 10:31 AM
B said

assalaamu alaikum. i've never posted a comment on this site before, but this article cracked me up. in the words of br.talal, "word" to the back-front setup. the backs of brothers' heads...well you can't really do much fantasizing there alhamdulillah, so it works out nicely.

on May 5, 2004 11:48 AM
Justoju said

Why not just teleconference the ISRU meetings :)

on May 5, 2004 1:13 PM
Gillette said

"Why not just teleconference the ISRU meetings "

why not?

on May 5, 2004 1:44 PM
Justoju said

Because then, as an auntie patiently explained to my naive mind, the girls and boys would not know who to marry and would all commit zina with girlfriends and boyfriends out of despair, thus causing the downfall of the Ummah and bringing on the apocalyse. So really the choices are mixed gatherings or apocalypse.

I love westernized auntie logic.

on May 5, 2004 3:32 PM
Saima said

wow.


on May 5, 2004 7:37 PM
ayan said

Saudia Arabia is a prime example of seperation gone awry. In any new approach to this subject, lessons are to be learned.

on May 6, 2004 9:15 AM
Wajahat Gilani said

assalaamualaikum,

actually, the days when a brother just wanted to knockout, or didn't want any attention he would sit in the back left. the natural room divider would hide him from the sisters and the speaker.
but, like hassan said, when a brother was bling, blingin it, and had an agenda, the front right was the place to be.

aaah memories.

walaikumsalaam
wajahat gilani

on May 6, 2004 10:53 AM
Justoju said

I believe the expression is "bling-blingin it" as the "bling" and the "blingin" are not two seperate entities that require differentiation via a comma---since a comma is only needed when sequencing entities of unique and qualitatively-independent natures.

I apologize for the madness. I cant help it. Please continue with the discussion.

On a more relevant (and less neurotic) note:

Bro. Ayan, I agree that S.A. is a case of forced seperation gone awry, but what lessons do you believe should be learned from its example? And how do you think they should be applied to ISRU?

Just wondering what others think...

on May 6, 2004 2:03 PM
Talal said

As far as what's gone wrong in the Saudi, as well as the rest of the Gulf, is that the forced separation has given rise to a very "cultured" Islam. People do things that seem Islamic more out of cultural obligation than anything else. This leads to both a near perversion of that once Islamically-inspired enforcement, or an escape out of Saudi to relieve repressed wantings.

Take the rule that women need to cover up... So every woman wears an 'Abaya and Hijab when out of the house. What has happened now? What is supposed to be a "loose outer clothing" has instead become an implementation of fashion itself; it being now required that an 'Abaya is "cut" at just the right points so that it reveals one's figure to its most flattering fullest.

The other case, if you take the separation of men and women into account. Poor guys, can't chill the girls... so every Wednesday and Thursday night(for some even more often), the guys cross over the Causeway into Bahrain, and indulge in a free reign of sheesha, alcohol, and women.

ISRU needs to stick to what it stands for.. a Qur'an and Sunnah-fied way of life. It doesn't need to cater to numbers, so it doesn't have to force anything upon anyone. If you don't like something, make your voice heard, but if you don't show up, it is YOUR loss.

The state of people is in an obvious disarray if the divider is EVEN an issue. It's there to protect people on both sides of it. The only reason to remove it (and it's a good one), is to finally achieve a much better state of ISRU's being, by switching to a front-back setup, inshaAllah.


on May 6, 2004 2:19 PM
ayan said

Justoju: i simply utter vague generalities to be interpreted in whichever way one chooses, so as to remain liked by all.

For isru that means we try to provide the best learning environment possible, yet refrain from turning people away: but if many MANY people are complaining, let the wall fall.

on May 6, 2004 3:02 PM
ayan said

And I never had any problem with aunti logic, since it is often true of repressed countries, and displaced citizens of those repressed countries. Repression creates perversion.

on May 6, 2004 3:06 PM
Justoju said

Yes, repression creates perversion. I agree with your vague generality and feel that it is 'safe' enough to keep you liked by all.

Excellent work brother, keep em coming.

on May 6, 2004 3:27 PM
Nadia said

Assalam u alaikum,
This was a great and funny article. I never understood one thing though. Even if the brothers and sisters sprain their ankles in looking at their "exotic" counterparts,how can it ensure them that they are going to get married to wheoever they look at? I mean, whats the point of stray glances when the world is not so developed yet that you just look at someone and boom you are married, Astaghfirullah!!lol. But I mean I don't see any point in expending your energy, eyesight, time and emotions in looking at someone when you don't even know if that means anything or can lead to anything. Do you?

on May 6, 2004 4:13 PM
Saima said

wow. I really didn't know that this was a science.

there's a serious problem.

on May 6, 2004 4:54 PM
Wajahat Gilani said

Brothers and sisters generally try to look at specific brothers and sisters, because of underlying reasons. Very rarely will someone come and start "checking-out" randomly the other sex during ISRU.

walaikumsalaam
Wajahat Gilani

on May 6, 2004 6:42 PM
uknome said

"wow. I really didn't know that this was a science.
there's a serious problem."
ok saima u GOTTA stop posting our phone convos:-P

on May 6, 2004 7:56 PM
Saima said

what ? someone has tapped into my phone ?

great.

on May 6, 2004 8:12 PM
Nadia said

"Brothers and sisters generally try to look at specific brothers and sisters, because of underlying reasons. Very rarely will someone come and start "checking-out" randomly the other sex during ISRU."
Oooo!! I get it now. Couldn't understand what was the deal here.

on May 6, 2004 9:59 PM
Justoju said

Nadia-- you are assuming that people only look for 'marriage'. The thing is humans, male and female, love all things beautiful and derive great pleasure from viewing them. People dont look cuz they want to marry someone, they look cuz its nice to have some eye-candy during the day...

As for those who seek out and stare at that one specific person who makes their earlobes quiver with longing, well, their glances are a symptom of their obsession and are what nourish it (along with the many hours they spend thinking of that person across different scenarios...ya know, "mai yeh kehthee tho phir woh yeh kehtha").

on May 6, 2004 10:01 PM
Nadia said

hehehe. I like the last line.lol@having some eye candy.Actually I was talking about marriage because I thought that by "meeting women", Br. Hassan meant meeting women for marriage purposes. Anyways, I rest my case.May Allah (swt)help all of us in lowering our gazes. Ameen.

on May 6, 2004 10:16 PM
Wajahat Gilani said

Assalaamualaikum,

I'm going to have respectfully disagree, if a brother (don't know about sisters) wants some eye candy to pass the day, than he ussually goes to college ave, not Isru.

As for the other wierd stuff like thinking about different scenarios, guys don't do that either (although, if one did, other brothers would beat him down. or, as in the case with the current brothers, they'd probably write a mean poem about him and put it on hidaya)

just kidding fellas :)

walaikumsalaam
Wajahat Gilani

on May 6, 2004 10:28 PM
Talal said

Wajahat,

I gotta respectfuly disagree about people not coming to ISRU for eye candy. Maybe not "back in the day", but NOWadays, there's a new movement of perversion which involves people fallin head-over-heels for anything with a Hijab on its head.. whether a woman or chicken is wearing that Hijab is not of any consequence.

It is against this that poems are written that warn of "bright-glow-in-the-dark"(This Place) Hijabs, and stories are written about guys fallin for the so-called "hijab 'n' niqab"(Sister, Sister, Can't Resist Her)

on May 6, 2004 10:42 PM
Wajahat Gilani said

Talal,

hassan was once telling me about how things aren't like they were, but are you saying their are brothers, that come to Isru, just to "check-out" sisters wearing clothers top to bottom with a hijab, and walking right by scantilly clad women with their hair out and about?

If the answer is yes, than I have to say at least their is one silver lining, on the outward, we are a beautiful ummah.


walaikumsalaam
Wajahat Gilani

on May 6, 2004 11:01 PM
Gillette said

Define "back in the day." My first year (2000-2001), i knew of a person who came for staring at a specific sister. his involvement around ISRU subsequently revolved around her. this merits another column, but he chased her into a committee for the purposes of getting to know her for "marriage."

Like I said in my first comment on this article:

"...there are real consequences for not taking appropriate measures at the Islamic gathering..."

on May 6, 2004 11:21 PM
Justoju said

AssalamuAlaikum

"sister, sister, cant resist her"

hahahahahahahahhahaha....very amusing...

For Bro. Wajahat:
I am not saying that anyone PLANS to come to ISRU JUST to check out the femmes. What I am saying is that mashaAllah, as you said, we have a GORGEOUS ummah (mashaAllah and alhamdulillah) so it is very very very easy for a deen-valueing muslim's glance to accidentally fall upon a beautiful muslim or muslimah and for their brain to derive pleasure from that glance. As a sheikh puts it, "religious men are fitna for religious women, and religious women are fitna for religious men"...

ya gotta admit that a religious guy is going to be more intrigued by and find more beauty in a respectable pious modest muslimah with a nice face than he will in some chick on college ave who he KNOWS is a ticket to the 'naar'. He can justify his glances at the muslimah with far more ease than he can justify his glances at the hoochie-mama.

WasalaamuAlaikum

on May 6, 2004 11:41 PM
Gillette said

Assalamu 'Alaikum,

i might actually postpone the "meeting" part (part 2) until the beginning of the semester. until then, there are many opportunities during the summer where you can walk up to brothers and sisters to marry them at "Islamic" gatherings.

May Allah (SWT) grant us spouses.

on May 7, 2004 8:47 AM
ayan said

Ok there is a serious problem amongst young muslims today. Whereas there is much free mixing, when a muslim guy tries to get to know a muslim girl, for purposes of marraige (and why does anyone doubt these peoples intentions? thats another thing im really concerned about.) it is looked down upon.
I think we need to establish our priorities and establish our own intentions, and not judge those of other people.
ISRU encourages a healthy environment, where, during the meetings, people are not intermingling. I don't see the problem with people gauging someone based on their ISRU attendance - in fact I think it is a positive thing to see unions from ammongst the ISRU ranks. That is not to say we can check out people to our wills content - but meeting people as prospective mates through ISRU is a great thing.
Ill say it again, 90% of the articles here are about marriage, why is there such animosity towards this rahma of ALlah swt?

on May 7, 2004 10:12 AM
Gillette said

Re: Meeting for the sake of "marriage"

A) Talking to women is haraam, except in cases of necessity. Running an Islamic organization is a necessity, so if someone comes to ISRU because he sees the necessity of an Islamic organization, interactions with sisters for the sake of the organization is also a necessity. However - and I've talked to ISRU members about this - communication still has to be limited (nothing aside from that which affects ISRU - no "hi" "how are you?" "how was your exam?" "let's go out and get some coffee")

B) MARRIAGE IS NOT A NECESSITY. There are other ways to get married aside from big pimpin' it at ISRU. If you happen to meet a sister in the course of ISRU affairs, great. But, since there exists other ways of finding spouses, there's no real necessity in walking up to a sister to get to know her for marriage or coming to ISRU just to get married when haraam - interacting with sisters - is going on. would we spy on a sister while she is undressing for the sake of "marriage?"

You want to get to know her? Find her wali. Do some HALAL research.

on May 7, 2004 10:30 AM
Wajahat Gilani said

assalaamualaikum,

hassan, your right that always happens and will happen at isru, a guy seeing a specific girl for a specific reason. talal, is talking about what guys call, "scoping-out, checking-out, etc.". brothers never used to do random "scoping" during isru. even the more liberal brothers were more respectful about the issue. before and after was a different story. if this is happening during isru, than brothers need to start giving dawah one-on-one face-to-face.

sister justoju, your absolutely right. but in the case that you speak of, if a brother is intrigued by a sister that ussually that leads to inquiring about marriage. if a brother is staring he ussually plans to go somewhere with it.

walaikumsalaam
Wajahat Gilani

on May 7, 2004 11:20 AM
sq said

this whole conversation is very disturbing. there is a serious problem.

"NOWadays, there's a new movement of perversion which involves people fallin head-over-heels for anything with a Hijab on its head.. whether a woman or chicken is wearing that Hijab is not of any consequence. "
wow. i will never see isru brothers the same way again.

on May 7, 2004 1:53 PM
Justoju said

"if a brother is staring he ussually plans to go somewhere with it."

This triggers another disturbing issue: Yes, but how many of those brothers are 'ready' to provide the proverbial washing machine? It seems that many brothers are very eager to grab while the grabbins good (cuz they dont want to lose the creme sisters to someone else) and want to have a sister lined up for when they WILL be ready--which is often not for a very long time.

Sheikh Adhami speaks about this in length in his "Gender Relations" series. You are not allowed to hint or look for marriage until you are at the point where if you wanted to you could get a nikkah the next day. The sunnah is for the guy to propose when he is ready, for the girl to then respond 'quickly' and for the two of them to then get married asap. No one should be left 'hanging' or waiting.

So what all the well-intentioned guys who are looking for 'marriage' need to ask themselves is how many of them are REALLY in a position to get married? If they arent they need to curtail the looking and the hinting. Its unfair to the women.


on May 7, 2004 2:25 PM
Talal said

Big time WORD to Sister Justoju's last comment.

People really need to stop defending the act of the "stare". I'm NOT saying EVERY brother who attends ISRU is a perverted monkey (it would be wrong for sisters to think so), but the reason that so many brothers believe in the absolute necessity of either a divider or a front-back situation, is that without such a protection, the perverted monkeys WILL show up. Even if only one would come, that's enough for those who really care for those they so readily call "sisters", to implement all that is necessary to render staring impossible.

If you got that one look (not that one ogle), and you want to pursue it, Allah has given you the gift of Istikhara. Make use of it, and if the outcome is positive, then BE A MAN and talk to her wali. THEN indulge in the rahmah that is the Nikah. If you can't do that, do yourself a favor and realize your weakness.

on May 7, 2004 2:40 PM
Wajahat Gilani said

Assalaamualaikum,

Talal, why can't the ISRU brothers tell the brothers not to ogle, those they so readily call sisters, during ISRU? Is that why their was need for a divider because the guys didn't want to confront the so-called "monkeys"?

Justoju/Talal, I'm not defending the excessive stare, my point is that these brothers aren't doing random scoping, or "anything that wears a hijab". If a brother who is intending marriage even though he is not fit to get married, steps up to a sister, then the sister should equally BE A WOMAN, and direct the brother to her wali. If he just wants her to wait around, why is she waiting? That doesn't sound like the "creme" to me. It takes two to tango.

Sister sq, I'm highly skeptical of the type of guy Talal describes attends ISRU meetings. Even though I've been to ISRU only 3-4 times this year, each time their were a handful of brothers in attendance, and I know most of these young brothers to be respectful and full of morals. Although, this is with the divider up.

Brothers and sisters, use caution when you criticize a group, because you might be inadvertently slandering good muslim brothers and sisters.

walaikumsalaam
Wajahat Gilani

on May 7, 2004 3:14 PM
Talal said

Wajahat,

I'm far from saying that ISRU brothers are the monkeys. If i've come across saying that, then forgive me, as it's a result of my inability to write too well.

What I'm trying to tell you is that a couple of years ago, I heard comments from bothers that boiled down to people saying "Sigh... that hijab, man...". It was ridiculous.
Brothers taking what is supposed to be the exemplification of modesty, and making THAT part of their base desires? Yes, there is a responsibility for a sister to be a WOMAN such that if she is approached, she can tell the gu to exit stage left, and part of being a woman IS to avoid wearing the figure-hugging outfits and attention grabbing hijabs that do so well to distract. It is also the definition of a MAN to KNOW that onl the wali is the one to be approached.

However, I think the blame doesn't need to be passed on to the opposite gender. The problems lie on both sides, and each needs to do its best to recitfy themselves.

Wajahat, you're right brothers need to talk to other brothers WHEN such a situation arises, that's a big part of MANNING IT UP. I'm not saying these things are probably happening right now, but they WILL happen without a divider or front-back scenario. Think about it this way: What if that sister was your sister or daughter?

Again, if it isn't clear, ISRU attendee does not neceessarily equate to perverted monkey.

on May 7, 2004 3:34 PM
sq said

"Brothers and sisters, use caution when you criticize a group, because you might be inadvertently slandering good muslim brothers and sisters."

THIS was precisely the problem i was referring to (not any sort of "monkey" epidemic)...may Allah(swt) make us all sincere and humble in our comments and our actions....ghafla comes in many subtle forms....

on May 7, 2004 3:35 PM
Justoju said

"it takes two to tango"
hahahahaha, that cracked me up :)

Brother Wajahat - women generally wait because they get caught up in the "he likes me! he really likes me!" syndrome. I have seen naive girls literally wait for YEARS for a brother who just "needed a little more time" to get himself ready and worthy for the parental critique. I have seen the vast majority of these scenarios end in heartache and/or fitna.

Now, you are right, the females should woman-up and be like "either get to my wali or get to steppin", BUT just because they generally dont it doesnt give the guys permission to approach them with their "Sister, you are different from all the rest. You are special. I have been wanting to approach you for marriage for a long time but didnt know how to. But I cant bear to lose you to another. I would like to pursue marriage with you...BUT FIRST I need to figure out my major, graduate, and finish my post-grad education..."

So basically, both cases are equally wrong. The guys shouldnt be approaching till they are ready, and the girls should not be putting up with premature declarations of interest.

WasalaamuAlaikum

on May 7, 2004 3:44 PM
ayan said

this approaching of sisters by brothers will happen with or without the divider. come to college to study academia not to study the fairer folk

on May 7, 2004 5:14 PM
Wajahat Gilani said

assalaamualaikum,

Talal, 1) you are a talented writer
2) a divider doesn't solve "Sigh... that hijab, man...", people's hearts need to change

3)"What if that sister was your sister or daughter?"

And that statement pretty much sums up my confusion about what is going on with the brothers now (individually, I love u guys).

That is my sister. Maybe not by blood, but Islamically yes. Either way guys will be checking her out wherever she goes, but at ISRU I can make sure that she'll get the respect she deserves, how? By first, knocking down the divider, letting the monkeys come, and then one by one explaining to them that they need to exhibit a certain behavior when they are in AND out of ISRU towards the sister. Then they would choose either to comply fully, comply only at ISRU, or they wouldn't come at all. But even if they wouldn't come at all, word would spread, if you go to ISRU mind your manners or your going to have to deal with the Brothers.

so back to my question, why don't the brothers give some nasiha to those onlookers?

sister justoju,

either you have a very active imagination, or you've been proposed to too many times, but keep the lines coming I think a lot of younger brothers (and some older ones) are taking pointers.

I agree both are wrong, and older brothers and sisters should start to address the wrongs of it to whom it concerns.

walaikumsalaam
Wajahat Gilani

on May 7, 2004 5:49 PM
Gillette said

"By first, knocking down the divider, letting the monkeys come, and then one by one explaining to them that they need to exhibit a certain behavior when they are in AND out of ISRU towards the sister. Then they would choose either to comply fully, comply only at ISRU, or they wouldn't come at all. But even if they wouldn't come at all, word would spread, if you go to ISRU mind your manners or your going to have to deal with the Brothers."

The ummah uniter helps one to lower their gazes inside and outside of ISRU.

on May 7, 2004 5:59 PM
Gillette said

"I'm far from saying that ISRU brothers are the monkeys..."

I'm not as far. All brothers are perverted monkeys. If they say otherwise, they're lying to you. If they think otherwise, they're lying to themselves.

on May 7, 2004 6:38 PM
Justoju said

"keep the lines coming I think a lot of younger brothers (and some older ones) are taking pointers."

Yes. The playa is in. Feel free to ask questions.

Ok, so being the peace-loving synthesizer that I am, I propose the following solution:

1. We take down the divider (makes a whole lot of unnamed people happy)

2. Do a brothers in the front, sisters in the back setup. (makes Bro. Talal happy)

3. Invite the perverted monkeys--aka human males--in so that they may learn the deen and better themselves (conforms to Bro. Gillette's definition and makes Bro. Wajahat happy)

4. Ask the women to dress more conservatively, the way they would to a masjid. (Makes me, Nadia, and Saima happy)

5. Educate the members on the rules of gender-interaction and adab (makes Bro. Ayan happy)

6. Beat the bloody crap out of any guy that looks up at a sister (everyone is happy)

on May 7, 2004 7:59 PM
Mostafa Ibn Mohamed Khalifa said

Asalaamu `alaikum,

Everyone.

Stop.

Get off your computers for one hour. Look at the sun/moon/clouds/stars.

Come back to HidayaOnline :)

Re-read all the comments on this article.

Grow up.

The Dictator has spoken!

Sign up for Muhammad Alshareef's last class in NJ --

http://www.almaghrib.org/BOC1.html

Asalaamu `alaikum,

Mostafa ibn Mohamed Khalifa


on May 7, 2004 8:13 PM
Remmington steele said

dear Norelco

thanks for the advice... Youll find me in the player's seat next meeting...

Mahmoud El-Banna

on May 7, 2004 10:54 PM
Saima said

that's it. i ain't coming to ISRU anymore...

on May 7, 2004 11:42 PM
Justoju said

Saima, sorry but there is no escaping it hun. The male world outside ISRU is a LOT harsher than the one within it.

on May 8, 2004 2:23 AM
Wajahat Gilani said

Hassan,

No, I disagree, and who am I, you, or anyone else to make such a claim. None of us are Sheikhs.

Haroon is not a pervert
Ali is not a pervert
Asher is not a pervert
Sami is not a pervert
Hazim is not a pervert
Amr is not a pervert
Ibrahim is not a pervert
Tanveer is not a pervert
Talal is not a pervert
and list goes on and on....


do they all have sexual drives, yes, of course. do they exhibit proper adab and rights onto non-mehram sisters, of course.

do you exhibit proper adab and rights onto non-mehram sisters, yes u do.

Hassan, you need to make time to go to the rihla this summer.

and to sister Saima i know your post was in jest, but neverthless, show me a group at rutgers more pious than the Isru brothers, yes they have their quirks, and among their ranks are people struggling and different level, like the sisters. but they should be given their due credit. thursday nights they are trying to do something for Islam, and the best possible job they can, instead of partying and taking advantage of women (that 99% of the time want to be taken advantage of).

Brothers and sisters need to start giving people the benefit of the doubt. Outside of school, in the real world, there are people/organizations ready to tear into us. We shouldn't make there jobs easier by tearing into ourselves.

walaikumsalaam
Wajahat Gilani

on May 8, 2004 1:30 PM
Jannah said

"either you have a very active imagination, or you've been proposed to too many times,"

hahaha if you only knew, don't worry J. I'll leave it at that =D

Anyway, I agree w/ Br. Mostafa CHILLLLAX' and take the CLASS!

If you do only one thing this summer, make sure its hangin out w/ Moshee.

on May 8, 2004 4:15 PM
Justoju said

Sister Jannah and I both agree that that first comment did not need to be on this site. Please disregard it and strike it from the record. JazakAllahu khair for your patience.

on May 8, 2004 5:53 PM
Jannah said

Yes, please do strike.
And apologies for the inappropriateness.

But hey, maybe our endless chatter has ended the doomed divider debate!

on May 8, 2004 6:51 PM
Sami ibn Hassan Elmansoury said

Assalam Alaykum,

Mashaa Allah. All I can say is Mashaa Allah. Some people don't have any finals to study for. Maybe when all of our Ummah is getting straight A's (and I hope to start with myself) and everyone is praying five times/day and fasting all 30 days of Ramadan we can start spending hours discussing the dam*ed divider and what does or does not lead to marriage in 2004.
I agree with those who have said that there is hope in the ISRU Ummah Inshaa Allah and I think that everyone is exaggerating the opinion that a noticeable group of people actually come to ISRU to stare down (or tear down) the opposite sex or the divider. I think that Imam Raouf, Brother Mazen, Brother Walead, Dr. Buker, and other community leaders and ISRU regulars who strongly encouraged its removal made valid points, and I believe that Brother Ronald H. and others who encouraged its maintenance also made valid points. In the end, BOTH parties are Inshaa Allah seeking to follow the Quran and Sunnah. In the end, everyone on this website is (or should be) seeking to follow the Quran and Sunnah. I'm sorry Sister, but unfortunately (although it is largely undisclosed to the ISRU Membership) the divider issue has never gone away and will never go away until we address the true concerns of our ISRU and RU Ummah. What is it that makes people (a.k.a. the so-called less pious ones) so hostile to ISRU now as opposed to in the days of Brother Wajahat, Brother Walead, Brother Shadee, Brother Umer, Brother Aamir, and many other Presidents who have come and gone. This isn't to say that there weren't problems, but is our end goal truly to weed out those who are weaker in faith than we deem ourselves to be? As Brother Mazen explained to me, no matter how much we may wish for a utopian society laden with every detail of our Beloved Rasool (PBUH)'s Sunnah, we have to start with the basics, we can't possibly build from the top. Until we are willing to do so we may never truly succeed in our task of Dawah to all those around us, and four years of our lives will have gone to waste in useless banter about what defines a proposal and who was peeking at the opposite bulletin board at last week's ISRU meeting. After all, who is more deserving of our consideration, time, and Dawah, Non-Muslims or the very MUSLIMS that we shun??? Subhan Allah. We smile at Non-Muslims who spurn our Deen but burn holes through the hearts of Muslims who yearn to improve with our fiery eyes. What have we become?

on May 9, 2004 12:22 AM
Hijabi Hottie said

And apparently brother Sami has no finals to study for either with that 10 page term paper he just posted.

I was in search for a halal version of Nasseb without pictures. I think ive found it. This is a great site. Do you all realize that this is a sign of the last day. Being so impressed with your opinions. We truely live in a day where the speakers are many and the scholors are few. Do something with your lives. Especially you College has beens that allready graduated.

And to those flawless sisters faking their modesty, you only know the brothers are looking because you're looking yourselves.

on May 9, 2004 1:05 AM
Sami ibn Hassan Elmansoury said

I hope that I was not associated with an effort to insult any specific person who has been posting on this website. Nor am I personally infatuated with my opinion. I rarely post on Hidaya, but I felt a strong need to do so after weeks of reading various remarks that I've found to be disturbing.
I don't feel insulted by the last remark considering that yes my message took time away from my finals stuying (so thanks Sister Hijabi...), but I'm sure that we can be more "Islamic" about our approach to addressing each other, especially in the latter half of your message. Try not to take my own advice as another complaint or just a thing to criticize. That's not my intention in having posted my term paper.

Nor am I by ANY means a scholar.

on May 9, 2004 1:25 AM
Sami ibn Hassan Elmansoury said

Wow, that was a mouthful. Forgive me if I came across as hostile to you sister, again not my niyya. Wassalam Alaykum.

on May 9, 2004 1:38 AM
Justoju said

AssalamuAlaikum,

Dearest sister, I am sure you had reasons for what you said. I am not one to judge you and am most likely not giving you the number of excuses I am obligated to. For this I deeply apologize...but, for future reference, you may mock any part of me that you wish, but please be very careful not to take away a person's Islam. It is really more for your benefit that I say this than mine.

I dont go to ISRU meetings much at all (nor do I know many of the members) and so do not know what the sister situation is in regards to 'looking'.

And ya ukhti, we dont post here because we are proud of our opinions. We post because there are problems in ourselves and in our ummah that we recognize and wish to help ourselves and each other to resolve. This is fardh upon us. And inshaAllah, may we all be blessed to sit at the feet of the true scholars. Your opinions matter as well and are welcome.

And if you have a certain opinion of me, it is most likely due to my own weaknesses. I invite your nasihah inshaAllah.

WasalaamuAlaikum
Just another struggling Muslim

on May 9, 2004 1:45 AM
Sami ibn Hassan Elmansoury said

I would like to offer everyone some valuable Nasihah. Be mindful of the fact that Shaytan (La'anahullah) can play an active role ANYWHERE, from the University campus to our homes to this very website. Let's not insult one another. Please maintain Islamic conduct as long as this site remains in the name of an ISLAMIC Society. That is not a request. I will be addressing this issue to Brother Talal as well. It's one thing to disagree but another to blatantly hurt another Muslim. We are NOT The Medium. We play by Islamic rules here. Freedom of Speech exists but is limited in our Deen especially when it comes to fallacies.

I'm sure that that is not the intention of anyone here Inshaa Allah.

Again I urge everyone to consider the comments above, and I apologize if they sparked the ensuing controversy.

Jazakum Allahu Khayr.

Your Brother in Islam,

S. Elmansoury

on May 9, 2004 2:53 AM
Faisal Akhtar said

Dear Sister Hijabi.

Here is something a brother once posted on this website whose opinion I regard very highly. This post was in response to a comment that was very similar to yours.

"Dear guess,
If you would like to post something, please include your name as it provides for some accountability for your statements. Refer to my article on Pseudonyms.

http://www.hidayaonline.com/archives/cat_fire.html

Also, this caustic sarcasm is quite unnecessary. The "place" that he is referring to is not a spatial or temporal space, but a spiritual place, a condition of the hearts.

Again, please include your name if you are going to post and don't hide behind fake names especially if you are trying to insult someone using internet muscle.


Posted by: Oh. Schick aka Ali Bin Masood Farooki (regarding the poem "This Place" by Hassan Khaja)

The reason I posted his response because I couldn't have said it better myself. Please feel free to discuss my shortcomings and if you must do so, discuss those of others as well but don't do it in public.

"All the eminent scholars of Islam agree that secrecy is a requisite for an advice to be accepted. Abu Hatim Al Basti said, "Giving advice is an obligation on everybody, but it should be given in private. Whoever advises his brother in private does him a favor; and who ever advises his brother in public hurts him." Al-Fudail said, "A believer keeps secrets, while an unbeliever reveals them and reproaches people in public." Sufyan was asked "Do you like that someone inform you of your defects?." He answered "If he comes advising me in private, yes; but if he comes slandering me in public, no."
In order for his advice to be accepted by Allah, an adviser should be sincere, seeking only the reward from Allah. Giving advice in public contradicts sincerity since it indicates that the adviser is only trying to be seen of others (i.e., Riyaa')."

I know that this contradicts my own advice since I am advising you in public but I couldn't use your email address since the address you provided was hellno@yahoo.com

The stuff in quotes is not mine, I got it from a website. May Allah guide us all.

on May 9, 2004 4:50 AM
Gillette said

Some advice to all and myself:

"Muslim, Book 001, Number 0076:
It is reported on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (may peace and blessings be upon him) observed: He who believes in Allah and the Last Day ...speaks good or remains silent."

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/001.smt.html#001.0076

on May 9, 2004 3:48 PM
Saima said

"and to sister Saima i know your post was in jest, but neverthless, show me a group at rutgers more pious than the Isru brothers, yes they have their quirks, and among their ranks are people struggling and different level, like the sisters. but they should be given their due credit. thursday nights they are trying to do something for Islam, and the best possible job they can, instead of partying and taking advantage of women (that 99% of the time want to be taken advantage of). "

Br Wajahat you're absolutely right. So tell me again ? What was the purpose of this article?

on May 9, 2004 7:01 PM
Mostafa ibn Mohamed Khalifa said

Asalaamu `alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuhu,

The Medium??? Wow. I'm speechless ... ok, the moment has passed :)

You all need some halaal chicken wings. All this pent up energy is not becuase of any divider/uniter .. or as I like to call it "THE PLASTIC". We just need Douglass Pizza to re-open so we can have some wings, a few Mama & Baba Specials and we'll be all good. :)

We're having fun here, some people just need to check the chutney (to take from another forum) at the door and get back on point. Chief Hidaya (a.k.a. Talal) will handle the regulatin' up in here. Everyone else just chill, 'til the next episode.

Asalaamu `alaikum,

Mostafa ibn Mohamed Khalifa (seems like more ppl are going back to this naming style ... I like :) ... props to Br. Arif ibn Muzaffar Hussain for starting the trend on HidayaOnline :)

on May 9, 2004 9:46 PM
Mostafa ibn Mohamed Khalifa said

Asalaamu `alaikum,

P.S. -- "...no matter how much we may wish for a utopian society laden with every detail of our Beloved Rasool (PBUH)'s Sunnah, we have to start with the basics, we can't possibly build from the top. Until we are willing to do so we may never truly succeed in our task of Dawah to all those around us ..."

I feel you are confused if you believe the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and the Companions (may Allah be pleased with them) lived in a "utopian" society. They had *REAL* issues to deal with. They built a *REAL* Islamic Society ... an Ummah ... from the ground up.

When the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) went to Madinah with the Muhajireen, he met with the Ansar. They said they would help the muhajireen -- protect them, provide for them. Then they asked what they would get in return for their help (nasr). The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) told them they would get the ultimate reward ... Jannah!!! When they heard that, they were like, we're sold, sign us up! (I'm paraphrasing, of course) :)

And so Surat AlBaqarah was the first surah revealed in Madinah. Not only does it detail the stories of past nations that did not uphold their COVENANT with Allah and how they were destroyed for their BREACH of COVENANT (as a reminder and warning to us as Muslims). It also clearly lays out the blueprint we need, the blueprint our leaders need in building a society, an Ummah. Not in a utopia, not in a dream. In *REAL* life, with *REAL* problems (spreading Islam, defending Muslims, war).

If you call yourself a leader ... if you consider yourself someone who wants to help build a *REAL* Ummah ... someone who wants this Da`wah to truly succeed, so that the Qur'an and Sunnah are supreme in all the lands ... then you need to learn the ultimate strategy and plan for Islam & Muslims -- BREACH OF COVENANT: Tafseer Surat AlBaqarah.

http://www.almaghrib.org/BOC1.html

Asalaamu `alaikum,

Mostafa ibn Mohamed Khalifa

on May 9, 2004 11:55 PM
Mostafa ibn Mohamed Khalifa said

P.P.S. -- When the heck did I stop being a former ISRU President? And when did Waj become one? And while I'm on the subject ... Kashan, Tanveer, Ali, Rajab, etc. Someone either has selective memory or ... we need to have an ISRU History 101 class ... hahahaha ...

But until that class is offered, you all need to take BREACH OF COVENANT :) :) :) --

http://www.almaghrib.org/BOC1.html

In the words of Mr. R. King, "Can't we all just get along?" ... :)

on May 10, 2004 12:08 AM
Gillette said

"Br Wajahat you're absolutely right. So tell me again ? What was the purpose of this article?"

Many of the problems which I mention (and which I intend to mention in the future) about the male psyche can be appropriately addressed by following the sunnah. I get the impression that sisters are a bit naive about this.

Also, it bothers me that sisters feel like they're second-class citizens when the sunnah is practiced. But, if they feared the dire consequences of not following it, feeling like a second-class citizen would most certainly not be their primary concern.

on May 10, 2004 12:21 AM
Sami ibn Hassan Elmansoury said

Assalam Alaykum,

No Mostafa you never did stop becoming a former ISRU President, and my apologies for claiming that Brother Wajahat was a former ISRU President. It wasn't my intention to spread any wrong information. I know my ISRU history quite well actually and I definitely apologize if I offended you, although the "and many other Presidents who have come and gone" statement was typed because I was too concerned about the issue at hand to list every President that I happen to know.

Advice about conduct on this website is very much a Shura responsiblity as well as long as it has attached to it the name of ISRU.

Nor did I claim that the Prophet (PBUH) lived in a "utopian" society, my claim was specifically that sometimes in the midst of the turmoil within which we find ourselves to be existing today, a Sunna-fied society often looks like a utopia of sorts; the ultimate goal, the perfect world. Anyone who denies this isn't going to the Masjid every Friday for Jumaah. I was not claiming that that was in fact a reality, however much the Sunnah would solve many contemporary problems that we face today. The days of the Prophet (PBUH) saw many problems and a great amount of hypocrisy and torment of true and sincere Muslims. The days following his (PBUH) reign saw much greed and even treachery. There were good times and there were bad times. The Sunnah has always been the ultimate example, however. What I was referring to is the fact that we cannot take a bad time and assume a perfect system without testing the water; it would be like throwing a common book into fire and expecting it not to burn. The only way to prevent it from burning is to either douse out the fire (which would be impossible) or to "treat" the book with Iman. The fire represents evil of the world and foreshadows the punishment of the Hereafter - which would thus be impossible to put out, and the book represents the story of one's life - the book given to us in the Akira.

Indeed we can always refer back to the common saying - Islam, the Deen of Allah (SWT), is Perfect, Muslims are not. The way we go about helping ourselves improve and the speed of this improvement is essentially on an individual level and a community cannot just abandon those who are seemingly a little ways behind the fit.

On a side note, I encourage everyone to read the latest "STOP! PLEASE READ" post, excellently done Mashaa Allah. May Allah (SWT) help me first apply it to myself and help us all apply it to our lives Inshaa Allahu Ta'ala and help us avoid the abominable Riyaa' of the Dunya Inshaa Allah.

And sign up for the Al-Maghrib class. Consider it to be an off-season series of excellent ISRU meetings Inshaa Allah. I pray that I will be able to attend.

Address: http://www.almaghrib.org/BOC1.html

Wassalam Alaykum Wa Rahmat Allahee Wa Barakatu.

Your Brother In Islam SE

on May 10, 2004 2:32 AM
Justoju (trying to get back to the topic) said

"Many of the problems which I mention (and which I intend to mention in the future) about the male psyche can be appropriately addressed by following the sunnah. I get the impression that sisters are a bit naive about this."

That is sadly very true. In the past, out of natural haya (in both genders), much has been hidden from women regarding how the male psyche works, and vice-versa. Most unmarried women (and many married ones as well) assume that there is little difference between the male and female psyche. The only cases that know otherwise are the ones that have been exposed to candid honest guy-speak. Muslim women in the West have been exposed to far more of this (due to the culture, media, environment) than women in the East, and for this reason might have a better ballpark estimate of how the opposite gender thinks. But still, its just an estimate and is often waaaayy off.

That is how the whole "second-class citizen" disease you talk about is born. Women often have no clue WHY they are being asked to dress/behave in a certain way, and being told "Allah (SWT) wants you to" is apparently not enough of a reason for most humans. It shouldnt be this way and that reasoning should be enough, but sadly, people are weak and they want reasons. And when they dont have a clear understanding of why they HAVE TO do something (and how it is ONLY for their OWN undeserving benefit), they feel oppressed. Oppressed by whom? Well, they cant say that Allah, Glorious and Exalted, is the oppressor ('Aoodhobillah) so they say that its the men and their interpretation of Scripture that is the cause of the oppression. Sad, but its the human condition.

So Bro. Gillette, if you plan to speak candidly about the male psyche, know that you might continue to surprise many women. It is not so often that we get such a blunt glimspe into the male mind.

As the sister said, "wow. I really didn't know that this was a science. there's a serious problem."

on May 10, 2004 3:35 AM
Mostafa ibn Mohamed Khalifa said

Asalaamu `alaikum,

I look forward to seeing you and *ALL* the brothers and sisters at the BREACH OF COVENANT class inshaa' Allah

http://www.almaghrib.org/BOC1.html

Asalaamu `alaikum,

Mostafa ibn Mohamed Khalifa

on May 10, 2004 3:40 AM
Wajahat Gilani said

assalaamualaikum,

yes, my brother was a former amir for a summer, not me, i was just treasurer for a semester.

Hijabi Hottie,

"Especially you College has beens that allready graduated."

r u serious, why don't u and your boyfried say this to my face?

give me the place and time

Wajahat Gilani

9 Unami Court
Somerset, NJ 08873

on May 10, 2004 10:12 AM
Wajahat Gilani said

assalaamualaikum

i'm just making fun of hijabi ugly by trying to be as immature as her, so everyone just calm down, i doubt she's gonna even read this site again

wajahat gilani

on May 10, 2004 10:18 AM
Mostafa Ibn Mohamed Khalifa said

Asalaamu `alaikum,

Gotta luv dem GGGGGGilanis :D

Hey Waj, you wanna help me teach a course in ISRU Humor??? It'll be like Abbott & Costello ... you talkin about the good ol' days ... me talkin' about DP, my beard and ... hmm .. what else ... what else could I possibly talk about .... maybe the upcoming BREACH OF COVENANT CLASS on SURAT ALBAQARAH :):):):) (*NOTE* -- :) = joke, haha, funny, etc.) --

http://www.almaghrib.org/BOC1.html


Yo Waj, sign up already!!! Same goes for all you Hidaya-faithful (and even the not-so Hidaya faithful ... everyone is welcome!!!) :)

on May 10, 2004 1:31 PM
Wajahat Gilani said

Mostafa, lets do a amateur comedy night!

wajahat gilani

on May 10, 2004 1:53 PM
Tanweer said

Bismillah,

As-salamu 'Alaikum,

"Br Wajahat you're absolutely right. So tell me again ? What was the purpose of this article?"

Hassan wrote this article so that he can reclaim his record from Faisal for the most comments in a hidaya article.

And you guys fell for it...:(

He needs only 8 more comments, so stop! please stop commenting on this article, otherwise he'll get encouraged and will write about "How to talk to women @ ISRU", "How to look at women @ ISRU" "How to smile at women @ ISRU"... and the series will never end.

Read the one on intentions, its really good mashallah...
May Allah(swt) grants us all hidaya. Ameeeen
wassalam
Tanweer

on May 10, 2004 2:38 PM
J said

We cant stop commenting. Its finals week. We are all sleep-deprived. We have consumed enough caffeine to cause blindness in small mammals. We are irrational. Some of us write our best when we are near-hallucinating. This is good.

Why dont we just post a reply to Br. Faisal's article everytime we post here?

Then his plans shall be thwarted...

on May 10, 2004 3:55 PM
Saima said

how come no one posted the hadith about the gathering where people were remembering Allah and someone stopped by and was included in the gathering with other intentions and they got the same reward as the people ?

i know there are more learned here than I.. so if anyone can post the hadith... it'll be greatly appreciated :)

on May 10, 2004 10:14 PM
Jannah said

GOOOD point, Saima!

Can I get a Takbeeer?

(Allahu'Akbar)

on May 10, 2004 11:00 PM
Gillette said

bukhari, Volume 1, Book 3, Number 66:
"Narrated Abu Waqid Al-Laithi:

While Allah's Apostle was sitting in the mosque with some people, three men came. Two of them came in front of Allah's Apostle and the third one went away. The two persons kept on standing before Allah's Apostle for a while and then one of them found a place in the circle and sat there while the other sat behind the gathering, and the third one went away. When Allah's Apostle finished his preaching, he said, "Shall I tell you about these three persons? One of them be-took himself to Allah, so Allah took him into His grace and mercy and accommodated him, the second felt shy from Allah, so Allah sheltered Him in His mercy (and did not punish him), while the third turned his face from Allah and went away, so Allah turned His face from him likewise. "

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/003.sbt.html#001.003.066

on May 10, 2004 11:23 PM
Mostafa Ibn Mohamed Khalifa said

Asalaamu `alaikum,

Allahu Akbar! DUURRRBAAAAHHH!!! :)

Asalaamu `alaikum,

Mostafa ibn Mohamed Khalifa

P.S. -- The only way to find out what Durbah is all about is to register for BREACH OF COVENANT

http://www.almaghrib.org/BOC1.html

(I kid you not!)

on May 10, 2004 11:23 PM
Abdullaah Somebody said

Aaah, the Muslim ummah bent on wasting its time and energy during you folks final week.
Strong and determined Muslims: keep the divider at all costs. This is the administration's decision and remain steadfast by it and may Allaah help you.
To the rest of the Muslims: what can I say,
take Islaam fully and not in pieces. You say you are a Muslim, you say you want to be a good Muslim, then follow Rasool SAW and the sahabah, dont follow your desires or American Arab/Desi culture. There is no reason for you to stare or go looking, because sahabah did not stare and there is no reason for you to think you will find spouse this way because everything is written by Allaah SWT, ask your parents, wali, mahrams to help you because that is what the sahaabah did and they did not come at the next masjid gathering and be like, 'oh so and so's daughter is single, let me go talk to her.'
Lower your gaze is for both men and women and if a few Muslims are adamanant about separation and are very intellectual about it then it will stay in place. If you are educated about Islaam and practice it with acceptance, separation will not go awry as it has in some places( because of ignorance and jahiliyah).
that is my couple of sense, I could not wait to say anything. Little brothers and sisters, grow up.Life is not the darwin driven only about marriage. There are other serious issues in life: learn those and then worry about marriage. Opt for arranged marriages, because even my American collegues( non-muslims) say arranged marriages are good( and they live in this bad society and are brought in this bad society and still wish THEY HAD ARRANGED Marriages(fitrah speaking folks)) and I am getting one too in sh'Allaah.
Wasalamu Alaikum
Abdullaah Somebody

on May 10, 2004 11:51 PM
Faisal Akhtar said

I just wanted to be the one to have Hassan break the comment record.

on May 11, 2004 12:30 AM
Faisal Akhtar said

Those people who accused Hassan of turning this into a comment competition really need to be careful before they speak. What happened to 70 excuses for your brother? I love you Hassan.

on May 11, 2004 12:32 AM
Ali Ibn Masood Farooki said

Where is the hadith about making 70 excuses that everyone refers to??

Poppa smurf

on May 11, 2004 1:04 AM
Sami ibn Hassan Elmansoury said

I searched for it and I'm having some difficulty finding a firm answer. The best relation that I found was that this is in fact a statement of Ja'far As-Sadiq (RAA) - "If you see something you don't like in your brother try to find from one to seventy excuses for him. If you can't find an excuse, say, 'There might be an excuse but I don't know it.'"

There are others who give credit for this saying to the Propher (PBUH) as well. I would rather not assume full truth in that possibility unless I discovered a line of relation Wallahu 'Alam. Perhaps someone may have this information on hand.

I am not sure who Brother Abdullah is, and if he is a Sheikh of high knowledge please forgive me for not offering him proper credit. I do not believe that we as Muslims do things "at all costs". There are even dire times when we are encouraged to break dietary laws or verbally forfeit our very Deen. May Allah (SWT) protect us from such times. If you are not aware of the situation that has been going on recently, then I would suggest that you inquire about it to those who were deeply involved for the past few months, including many knowledgeable elders in the community. Again I apologize if I am not offering you due respect for your knowledge, and may Allah (SWT) forgive me.

As far as the arranged marriage issue is concerned, I believe that that term is being used incorrectly in this case as today it nearly implies "forced marriage".

There is the hadith of the Propbet (PBUH) that states that if a man with good Deen and manners comes TO THE WOMAN (in most cases through her wali) seeking her in marriage, he should not be turned away, or there will be great fitnah in the land. This does not imply arranged marriage but rather direct permission of the woman to be married.

"If he whose character and deen (practice of religion) pleases you, approaches you in marriage, then marry him, for if you don't, there will be fitna in the land and vast corruption." (Tirmidhi and others, see Sunan Tirmidhi #1085 and it is hassan (reliable) as per Sahih ul-Jaami' #270).

Buraida (may Allah be pleased with him) said that a young woman came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) and said, "My father married me to his brother's son (i.e. her cousin) in order to raise his standing among the people," so the Prophet (peace be upon him) put the matter in her hands (i.e. asserted that the validity of the marriage is conditioned on her approval and negated by her refusal). So she said, "I authorize and endorse what he has done but I wanted women to know that fathers cannot force their will in these matters."

And it was narrated by Nisaa'I via Abdullah ibn Buraida via Aa'isha that a young woman came to her and said, "My father married me to his brother's son in order to raise his standing among the people and I am unwilling (to agree to it)", so she said, "Sit until the Prophet (peace be upon him) comes." So the Prophet (peace be upon him) came and she informed him of the situation, so he sent for her father and invited him (over) and asserted that the matter is in the bride's hands. So she said, "Oh Prophet of Allah I have authorized and endorsed what my father has done, but I wanted to know if women had a say in the matter or not." (Sunan al-Nisaa'I, Kitaab al-Nikaah min Sunanihi and it is sahih).

The Prophet (PBUH) did not to my knowledge prohibit objections by either the man or the woman in cases of wedlock, Wallahu 'Alam. Taking advice from those who are wiser than us, on the other hand, is something that we all should most certainly do in situations as important as marriage.

Bitawfiq on your finals.

-Brother Sami E.

on May 11, 2004 3:11 AM
Justoju said

Sister Saima, is this the one you were referring to?

Sahih Bukhari Book 035, Chapter 8, Number 6505:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying Allah has mobile (squads) of angels, who have no other work (to attend to but) to follow the assemblies of Dhikr and when they find such assemblies in which there is Dhikr (of Allah) they sit in them and some of them surround the others with their wings till the space between them and the sky of the world is fully covered, and when they disperse (after the assembly of Dhikr is adjourned) they go upward to the heaven and Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, asks them although He is best informed about them: Where have you come from?
They say: We come from Thine servants upon the earth who had been glorifying Thee (reciting Subhan Allah), uttering Thine Greatness (saying Allah o-Akbar) and uttering Thine Oneness (La ilaha ill Allah) and praising Thee (uttering al-Hamdu Lillah) and begging of Thee.
He would say: What do they beg of Me?
They would say: They beg of Thee the Paradise of Thine.
He (God) would say: Have they seen My Paradise?
They said: No, our Lord.
He would say: (What it would be then) if they were to see Mine Paradise?
They (the angels) said: They seek Thine protection.
He (the Lord) would say: Against what do they seek protection of Mine?
They (the angels) would say: Our Lord, from the Hell-Fire.
He (the Lord) would say: Have they seen My Fire?
They would say: No.
He (the Lord) would say: What it would be if they were to see My Fire?
They would say: They beg of Thee forgiveness.
He would say: I grant pardon to them, and confer upon them what they ask for and grant them protection against which they seek protection.
They (the angels) would again say: Our Lord, there is one amongst them such and such simple servant who happened to pass by (that assembly) and sat there along with them (who had been participating in that assembly).
He (the Lord) would say: I also grant him pardon, for they are a people the seat-fellows of whom are in no way unfortunate.

and another one I like...

at-Tirmidhi:

Anas ibn Malik reported that the Messenger of Allah said, "When you come upon the meadows of the Garden, graze in them." He was asked, "What are the meadows of the Garden?" "Circles of dhikr." he replied.

on May 11, 2004 3:25 AM
Gillette said

I'd like to point out that I don't plan to cause controversy, but sometimes it happens. I never would've thought that the "The brighter the hijab, the darker the heart..." stanza would've caused such an uproar. I thought the stanza about azhar usman, "...kindness and blindness and mindless jokes about poor-hunger-money doctors"
( http://www.hidayaonline.com/archives/000004.html ) would be the more controversial one. This reinforces my "Hypersensitive Sister Syndrome" (HSS) theory, but I digress.

This was to free myself of the false charge of seeking to write an article to break comment records.

on May 11, 2004 8:41 AM
Tanweer said

Bismillah,

As-salamu 'Alaikum,

Please forgive me bros, but honestly i was just kidding around, I'm sure, infact i know you had good intentions writing this article.
wassalam
Tanweer

on May 11, 2004 10:22 AM
Rami said

Aslaam Aleikum Warahmatullah Wabarakatu,

Someone gave me an Islamic daily planner once which has a hadith and ayat from Qu'ran for every day. Anyway, i thought today's hadith has a strong relevance to the issue so...

Book 004, Number 0881:
Abu Huraira said: The best rows for men are the first rows, and the worst ones the last ones, and the best rows for women are the last ones and the worst ones for them are the first ones.

I know this hadith has to do with Salat, but yet my observation has been thus far that there has never been any Islamic event that I have attended where anyone has had a problem with the front/back alignment of men/women. So it's a question I have is why can't the same be done for ISRU meetng. It would be very hard for anyone to argue the effectiveness and the compatibility(of ideologies) of this setup. In order to implement this of course, the best way would be for the speaker to stand from what is currently the right side of the room or (the 'player's' section)...and the seats moved accordingly.

That's my unwanted two cents.

Also, everyone...please don't spend the summer this doing nothing...go join a the ninjitsu classes at MCMC so that we can actually have the claim of being STRONG Muslims. Please don;t make me have to write an article about this issue(which I might just do anyway) insha Allah.

Salaam Aleikum Warahmatullah Wabarakatu

on May 11, 2004 11:32 AM
Saima said

sr Justoju.. that's the one.

on May 11, 2004 11:53 AM
Sami ibn Hassan Elmansoury said

Assalam Alaykum,

Such a setup implies that all of our speakers are brothers, which is not the case correct? Sister Ruquaya, Sister Khadija, Sister Amina, among others. Clearly we would not be in favor (or at least I would not be in favor) of having the men staring at the backs of the women. Not to mention that with a front-back every brother walking in is subject to the stares of the sisters from the back. Which is why I believe that it is correct to assume that such a setup is ideal for Salah, but perhaps not for ISRU.

on May 11, 2004 11:59 AM
Rami said

Waaleikum Alsalaam Warahmatullah Wabarakatu,

Either way on the brothers walking in issue, the same thing happens in the masjid with the women being able to check out the men. The women if they come early, or the men if they come late...they are able to see the men entering.

the first issue is probably the bigger one as you said. If the speaker was a woman though...couldn't the men in front/women in back setup still be used. Either way with the divider or not, couldn't the (woman)speaker still be seen by all. btw, I haven't seen the post-divider setup so please forgive me if I make a mistake on this issue.

Also another question - is the divider collapsible? (i.e. can it be put up and the seats realigned for when a woman is speaking)

Wasalaam Warahmatullah Wabrakatu

on May 11, 2004 12:18 PM
Wajahat Gilani said

assalaamualaikum,

tanweer, everyone including hassan knows that you were joking, relax.

sami, I agree with you, some sisters are really judgemental and just sit there cracking on random brothers. I like the current ISRU set up, everyone on their own side.

abdullah somebody, an arranged marriage doesn't necessarily mean an Islamic marriage.

divider, 3 out of 4 Community Leaders prefer it down to up. when in doubt go with people that have the wisdom to implement knowledge.

walaikumsalaam
wajahat gilani

on May 11, 2004 12:23 PM
Mostafa Ibn Mohamed Khalifa said

"divider, 3 out of 4 Community Leaders prefer it down to up."

Asalaamu `alaikum,

First thing that popped into my head is one of those gum commercials ("4 out of 5 dentists approve ...").

(Random Thoughts from the Taqwa Seat) :)

Heyyyy .. that sounds like an awesome title for a new HidayaOnline column, don't you think?

Asalaamu `alaikum,

Mostafa ibn Mohamed Khalifa

on May 11, 2004 12:58 PM
Talal said

Hassan,

Take a bow. You're the first to hit a century on Hidaya.

howzzzaaaaaaaaaaaaat!


on May 11, 2004 1:09 PM
Gillette said

"Hassan,

Take a bow..."

"

“A man said, ‘O Messenger of Allaah, when one of us meets his friend, can he bow to him?’ The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, ‘No.’ He said, ‘Can he hug him and kiss him?’ He said, ‘No.’ He said, ‘Can he shake hands with him?’ He said, ‘Yes, if he wishes.’” (Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 2728; he said it is a hasan hadeeth. Also narrated by Ibn Maajah. 3702. The hadeeth was classed as hasan by al-Albaani in al-Silsilah al-Saheehah, 160).

Ibn Taymiyah said: “With regard to bowing in greeting, this is forbidden as narrated in al-Tirmidhi from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), that they asked him about a man who meets his brother and bows to him, and he said no to that. That is because it is not permitted to bow or prostrate for anyone except Allaah.” (Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 1/377).

"

on May 11, 2004 1:59 PM
Talal said

Where's a wagging tongue icon when you need one?

:-0

Ya Rabb.. I go back to being a programming monkey now.

Everyone who visits today, inshaAllah make du'a for all your brothers and sisters facing tests and trials in the coming time. We all needs it. :)

on May 11, 2004 2:21 PM
Abdullaah for you said

My apologies to Br. Sami, I really dont know the situation that is happening for a couple of months. Although, I am still wishing and praying the divider stays. You are right in times of necessity things become allowed( if you are dying and stuff). But I did not say anything about forced marriages. The ahadith you quoted talk about forced marriages and in no circumstance is a single never married girl to be married except with her guardians permission and a widow or divorcee is not married off except with her permission. SO there is a difference between widowed and never married women and different ways of approaching them.
That being said, arranged marriages are not necessarily forced unless you are a brainwashed American thinking you have to fall in love, etc.
To Wajahat, some arranged marriages are not Islaamic, that is depending on how your parents arrange them and you have to work that out with them.
All love marriages are un-islamic by nature, because in order to have a love marriage, you have to love someone and/or like them and according to American context that means talking to them, even if it is appropriate manner, it is still un-islaamic like it or not.
So arranged marriages, some might not be Islaamic but the vast majority are
all love marriages have an unislaamic nature even if they are straight and clean.
Alright, May Allaah help you people in your divider issues. My personal wish and prayer that it stays, but Allaah help you in your decisions.

on May 11, 2004 4:25 PM
Justoju said

Brother Hassan, I am curious about this HSS theory. I have a similar theory but I have a feeling yours will be quite different.

on May 11, 2004 11:23 PM
Wajahat Gilani said

Assalaamualiakum,

correction (thanks mostafa), 4 out of 5 community leaders say to take down the divider

abdullah somebody, a love marriage, as defined by muslims, means that one finds his own partner instead of mom and dad finding him one. in light of that definition i'm told either way is permissible, just as long as their done within the bounds of sharia.

congratulation hassan on breaking the 100 mark.

walaikumsalaam
wajahat gilani

on May 12, 2004 7:01 PM
Abdullah Somebody said

A man can find his own partner by proposing to the father of the girl for someone he has heard, not talking to the person or approaching them directly.
This is not part of Islaamic culture, like it or not. Wallaahu alim, Allaah may forgive the children who do it here in USA( aka, Muslim definition of love marriage) but bottom line whether anyone who does this knows that in its nature it is not correct or sanctioned by Islaam even if you follow sharia guidelines, through this day, none of the sahabah did anything like this. Khadijah RA proposed to Rasool SAW very very indirectly and through her wali talking to Abu Talib, if that is an argument you would like to point out.
There is no point in defending love marriage defined in Islaamic guidelines, because I am saying that it is probably not the best practice in finding a spouse. It is a shady gray area, something you are not sure about and the only reason you would not consider it such way( you meaning in general) is because you are blinded by emotions or liking the person, or you are brought up in American society where you absolutely cannot marry someone if you do not like them.

Wasalaamu Alaykum, I guess this is 101?

on May 12, 2004 11:39 PM
Sami ibn Hassan Elmansoury said

Is something decidedly wrong with having an interest in the Muslimah/Muslim with whom you are intending to spend the rest of your life by the Will of Allah if all the steps leading up to such a marriage are Islamic Inshaa Allah?

"Love marriage" could definitely indicate that you have seen the dedication that someone puts into a cause (i.e. Deen/academic related) and you have come to admire that person, or you have heard many good things about the person from other sources and you have thus developed an interest in her/him. Either way it is stated that asking her if she would be interested in engagement or marriage at that present time before going to her father often saves a man the embarrassment of taking things too far with the families and then being rejected by her family, or by her, etc., thus with the risk of such becoming public. One of my very close friends was married in such a manner. He was working with a sister (and his current wife Alhamdulilah) on an Islamic Society committee, and seeing her love for the Deen and the society's cause Mashaa Allah, he asked the of the Passaic mosque if he should indeed ask her if she would be interested in marriage at all before he made any official proposal to her father. Sheikh Qatanani encouraged this so as to ensure a positive response on the sister's part before the families became involved. Alhamdulilah, she immediately encouraged him to go to her wali, her father, and they were married soon after in the Islamic fashion. A "love marriage" need not imply dating, physical relationships, or needless conversation; one can come to "love" or admire his or her intended spouse through many Islamic means. Walking into an arranged marriage may work for some, but for others (even with strong Iman Inshaa Allah) it has led to bitter divorce. Is this a good thing?
If we are to use the example of Khadijah (RAA) as you have done, then it should be known that she indeed did go through the Prophet (PBUH)'s wali, however she did not do such until she had come to develop a strong admiration for his ethics, character, and appearance, Mashaa Allah Wallahu 'Alam. I think that the only possible discussion here could be about the method of proposal, as it would be unwise in my own opinion to argue that to marry someone without any knowledge of her/him or knowing extremely little is better than to have a positive interest in one's potential spouse, an interest which of course is acquired through Islamic means Inshaa Allah. Forgive me as I have not been married, however I am personally acquainted with two couples who were married in an nearly-arranged fashion, and merely because the two were not of any similar personalities, even with solid foundations in the Deen Wallahu 'Alam, they were divorced within a few years. Perhaps such becomes the case for marriages of interest as well, but I would personally prefer taking a step such as marriage having a reasonable knowledge of who I will be marrying rather than just skydive into the marriage and unwisely risk the happiness of my children when they see that their parents are incompatible by nature. The existence of incompatibility is a proven fact. Inshaa Allah I pray that you are one who is compatible with all. May Allah (SWT) make us all such people Inshaa Allah. However I feel that it is not correct to assume that marriages as you have described them are the ONLY correct way for one to marry as a Muslim. Noone is encouraging the "American system". It is not either a dictatorship (i.e. arranged) or a free agent society (i.e. "American"). Islam is al-Deen al-Wasat, and we must act against what is Haram and should not forbid that which is still within the realms of Halal Inshaa Allah. To date you are the first brother that I have ever heard say that arranged marriages are ideal in Islam. Perhaps I have been hearing wrong from every man and woman who has served as a source of my Islamic upbringing and education. My sister turned down a number of proposals before marrying my brother-in-law, who was a respected community member, a former Amir of ISRU, and a fellow attendee of the Islamic Sunday School she had attended while growing up. It is this exposure to him that made her realize that he was truly the one who Inshaa Allah would be the best choice for her. And her wali (my father) agreed. At no point did he ever know who she would one day marry, as he knew that he had raised her in such a fashion that she would know when the time comes. Her marriage could have been "arranged" by my grandmother (who was more than ready to do so) or to the first man who came to propose at our door. Instead my parents (who are not some "reformists" or anti-traditional people, you can trust me on that) chose to encourage my sister to choose in part based upon her exposure to them (i.e. Deen and personality, interests, etc,) while considering their always welcome advice. Was such a decision on their part truly "un-Islamic" or would it have been more "un-Islamic" had they pressured her to accept someone they had chosen and that inside would have been against her will? In essence, you will probably find that most arranged marriages are swallowed for the love of one's parents. This is a noble cause, but an unnecessary burden for the parents to place upon their children. May Allah (SWT) make you open to all of the Islamic options available to you and may He Bless your marriage Inshaa Allahu Ta'ala, whether arranged or by your own interest in her Deen and character (and approved by your parents) Inshaa Allahu Ta'ala.

Wassalam Alaykum Wa Rahmat Allahee Wa Barakatu.

on May 13, 2004 4:29 AM
Gillette said

Assalamu 'Alaikum,

Someone is obviously glad that he's done with finals.

May Allah (SWT) reward your friend, his fiancee/wife, and your sister and her husband. However, be careful how you use important people in your life to imply that what they do is correct. In a previous Nasihah article ("Sins and Consequences") i mentioned the example of a father who sins and a son who thinks that sin is OK because the person he respects most is doing it (his father), and no one likes to think that his father could go wrong. May Allah (SWT) reward those who abandon the kufr of their fathers.

Arranged marriages have the benefit of not knowing what the sister looks like, but still knowing of her character. The eyes lie to us.

"Either way it is stated that asking her if she would be interested in engagement or marriage at that present time before going to her father often saves a man the embarrassment of taking things too far with the families and then being rejected by her family, or by her, etc., thus with the risk of such becoming public."

I'm certain people don't like being embarassed, but if a brother really wants to get married, he needs to stop whining, be a real man and talk to the wali. (Not dealing in terms of waajib and haraam) but this is from the sunnah to go to the wali, as narrated by aisha in abu dawood's collection (the hadith is much easier to find if you go to Ar-Raheeq Al-Makhtum, in the chapter about the customs of the jaahileeyah). The only interaction, if necessary, should be "can i have your wali's contact info?" just because we interact with sisters for ISRU, doesn't mean that we can interact with them regularly. The wali plays a consultative role, as he looks out for her interests (on a more personal note, i highly doubt that i'd be comfortable if someone walked up to my daughter and asked her to marry him before talking to me). In this spirit, a sister should avoid a hasty "no."

on May 13, 2004 7:47 AM
Gillette said

I hope I implied that walking up to a sister is incredibly haraam when there is no other outlet.

Also, there's nothing wrong with knowing the sister before marriage, being impressed by her character, then proposing. But there's a difference between knowing her and getting to know her. We know sisters at ISRU by chance (but, if you propose to a sister, tell her that Allah [SWT] willed for you to meet this way :-P ) but I hope that we know that walking up to her and getting to know her is inappropriate.

on May 13, 2004 7:55 AM
Wajahat Gilani said

Abdullah Somebody,

Let me try explaining it again:

an arranged marriage and love marriage has nothing to do with how you approach a sister for engagement or her wali.

an arranged marriage is a girl/guy that you don't know introduced by a family member, where as a love marriage is someone you do know from your day to day dealings. how you go about it is what makes it permissible or not (through her wali).

walaikumsalaam
Wajahat Gilani

on May 13, 2004 10:06 AM
Justoju said

Steps:

1. Pick out a sister whose reputation you admire and whose looks (face and hands) you find tolerable.

2. get wali's information. Preferably not from her herself. This way if you decide not to propose to her later she doesnt know any better and wont have her hopes up.

2. Get your people to contact her people.

3. Once the intention is known in a formal halaal fashion to her wali, request permission to speak with her in a halaal setting (ie. in her home, and not alone)

4. THEN see if her personality, personal thoughts, and humor are compatible with yours and meet your preferences.

5. If you are still interested, issue a 'formal proposal'. No, contacting her with your wali does not constitute a proposal, it just means that you are interested in her for marriage and it is an avenue you wish to explore.

6. If she says yes, mabrook. Get married at the earliest available time and do not delay. Send me ten dollars in the mail for helping you out. May you have many robust sons like strong oxen inshaAllah.

on May 13, 2004 5:15 PM
Abdullah Somebody said

I did not mean for people, especially wonderful sisters to think, I am a guy, cause I am not. I send my articles to hidaya online editors and people and that is the only way they figured out, I am actually a sister. I try to sort of imply that in earlier posts. Well whatevers the deal, yeah I understand all your points but offcourse I am gonna agree with arranged marriages being better, because I have already agreed to arrange marriage, my whole entire extended family had arrange marriages. I was broughtup here(in this lovely place) but in the end I agreed to an arranged marriage, there was no one I knew here and no one was interested in me and I was not interested in no one( at least a two way street, you know what I mean) so damn well I am gonna be like arrange marriages are better.
The only person who had "love marriage" in my family was my paternal uncle, who seven years later we found out had another wive to whom he was secretly married.
All the same
Good day folks

on May 13, 2004 6:48 PM
Justoju said

...I get a wierd feeling that thats not the real Abdullah Somebody...

on May 13, 2004 7:26 PM
Saima said

just $10 sr. justoju ? market sahi nahin hai ? :)

on May 13, 2004 7:53 PM
Justoju said

Nahin, mai bus yeh nahi chahthee kai meri madat ki rakam kisi pe boj banay. Aur to aur, aaj kal aisa lagtha hai jaisay logon ko shaadi karnay ke liyay maeri madat ki zuroorat hi nahin hai. Khud hi apna intezaam kar laythay hai. Lahol wala qoowat!

on May 13, 2004 10:09 PM
Tanweer said

Bismillah,

As-salamu 'Alaikum,

There were a couple relevant question on Ask-imam:

1) This one is about the dangers of arranged marriages. The guy got the shock of his life...May Allah help him.
http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=11438

2)This one talks about love-marriages having no place in Islam:
http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=11605

May Allah(swt) grant us good spouses. Ameen
wassalam
Tanweer

on May 13, 2004 11:35 PM
Talal said

Heed the words of wisdom, eh:

"Maybe weesa keepsa Urdusa on the downlowsa, ehsa?"
-Jar Jar Binkssss

on May 13, 2004 11:36 PM
Wajahat Gilani said

assalaamualaikum

I agree with sister justoju, i don't think that was Abdullah Somebody either.

Also here is a response about loving someone before marriage:
http://www.sunnipath.com/resources/Questions/qa00003420.aspx

walaikumsalaam
wajahat gilani

on May 14, 2004 11:27 AM
Sami ibn Hassan Elmansoury said

Waalaykum Assalam,

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeah.... I'm kind of disturbed right now by this whole Abdullah Somebody controversy. But uh... on a side not... uh Jazak Allahu Khayr for your remarks Hassan and no I am not basing my thoughts on what family or friends have done. I was making the point that there seems to be some correctness in it, not that because people I know have done it it becomes 100% correct. That would be ludicrous (I really like that word for some odd reason). I wouldn't use the example of staying away from "Kufr" in this case by the way.
Nor would I encourage one to not have any visual contact with one's future wife however much looks can be deceiving indeed, Wallahu 'Alam. Just prioritize your search and make the first priority the Deen Inshaa Allah. There's a hadith that I have found to be very relevant and inspiring for those who may be concerned about finding the "right spouse", and I hate posting ahadith without the relation, but if someone knows it please send it in Inshaa Allah. It reads - The Prophet (PBUH) said: "If one marries a women for her wealth, Allah will leave him only with that; and if one marries a woman only for her beauty, he will see in her what he does not like; but he who marries a woman for her religion, Allah will gather those merits (i.e. beauty and wealth) for him." This in itself is true love, love of her Deen Inshaa Allah, which is the true pillar of the human soul. I think previous posts may have over-simplified the meaning of love and even confused it with "desire" Wallahu 'Alam. They are 100% different things and should be treated as such. May Allah (SWT) guide us to As-Sirat Al-Mustaqim. Wassalam Alaykum.

on May 14, 2004 7:43 PM
Gillette said

"Abdullah Somebody" e-mailed me as far back as a month or two months ago offering to post an article, and telling me she was female. Talal can confirm this as well. In addition, "Abdullah" never implied she was male, aside from her commmentator name.

on May 14, 2004 10:15 PM
Justoju said

ooooookkkkkk, I am officially wierded out.

on May 14, 2004 10:54 PM
Justoju said

I want a boys name too. I am changing my name to JustaJoe

on May 14, 2004 10:57 PM
Gillette said

And in response to Justoju's six easy steps to marriage:

"1. Pick out a sister whose reputation you admire and whose looks (face and hands) you find tolerable. ..."

It's highly inappropriate to take such a look at a sister without the permission of her wali.

on May 14, 2004 11:01 PM
Talal said

Hassan and other dear brothers and sisters,

Herein lies the end of your woes:
http://www.hidayaonline.com/archives/000033.html

;)

The above Abdullah Somebodys are the one and the same, by the by.

on May 15, 2004 12:49 AM
Justoju said

"It's highly inappropriate to take such a look at a sister without the permission of her wali."

Brother, excuse me if I misunderstand you, but you are saying that the brother should contact the wali BEFORE ever seeing the sister's face and hands? And what if you contact her wali, ask to see her, get permission, see her and find her unattractive? Would you then tell her wali that you dont find his daughter attractive (since kadhib is a kabira)?

on May 15, 2004 2:38 AM
Gillette said

"Brother, excuse me if I misunderstand you, but you are saying that the brother should contact the wali BEFORE ever seeing the sister's face and hands? And what if you contact her wali, ask to see her, get permission, see her and find her unattractive? Would you then tell her wali that you dont find his daughter attractive (since kadhib is a kabira)?"

In light of the fact that it's not good to look IN GENERAL, I'd have to see your proof for being allowed to look in the instance of marriage (before getting the wali's permission).

on May 15, 2004 7:51 AM
Wajahat Gilani said

Assalaamualaikum,

Hassan, Imam Ali (R) knew what Bibi Fathima (R) looked like. Prophet Muhammad (Salallah hu alayhi wasalam) knew what Bibi Khadeejah (R) looked like right? But I will ask your question to either Sidi Walead, or I'll send it in to SunniPath.

Abdullah Somebody, their is nothing wrong with having an arranged marriage or a love one, I'm going to have either one, my only concern is to do it within the boundaries of shariah. Just like you know a situation of where a love marriage was not a good situation, I know a situation where an arranged marriage ended up in bad circumstances. neither is the point, the point is that, do the couple realize that happiness in their relationship is a direct result of Allah's happiness with them.

walaikumsalaam
wajahat gilani

on May 15, 2004 12:26 PM
Wajahat Gilani said

ALLAHUMMA SALLI ALA MUHAMMADIN WA ALA ALI MUHAMMADIN KAMA SALLAITA ALA IBRAHEEMA WA ALA ALI IBRAHEEMA INNAKA HAMEEDUM MAJEED


ALLAHUMMA BARIK ALA MUHAMMADIN WA ALA ALI MUHAMMADIN KAMA BARAKTA ALA IBRAHEEMA WA ALA ALI IBRAHEEMA INNAKA HAMEEDUM MAJEED

on May 15, 2004 12:32 PM
Abdullaah Somebody said

Ashamed at my earlier post( and surprised no one corrected my brash post) I wasnt sure for the people who were confused whether I was the real Abdullaah were being sarcastic or for real because the post was brash and it made me feel bad. Either way I felt sorry about my mean post, sorry folks, and I was gonna say something like, "well I guess there can be two Abdullaah Somebodies in the world." But alhamdulillaah I did not do so, because it was treachery. I could not edit my post thereafter, once there then done, astaghfirullaahil adheem, so I guessed that is why you thought there were two different Abdullaahs.
As weird as you felt about my post, I am kinda surprised at how Br. Talal knows who I am, because I only emailed the articles to Br. Gillette, which did not get posted.......just curious, is it because it is not relevant to hidayaonline or something.
Anyways it's your call.
Wassalaamu Alaykum

on May 15, 2004 7:08 PM
Gillette said

"As weird as you felt about my post, I am kinda surprised at how Br. Talal knows who I am, because I only emailed the articles to Br. Gillette, which did not get posted.......just curious, is it because it is not relevant to hidayaonline or something."

I forwarded the articles to him. He's the editor of the website.

on May 15, 2004 11:49 PM
Abdullah said

Assalaamu Alaykum,
In reply to all the brothers and sisters who gave me dua's in your posts despite my saying disagreeable or contrary statements.

To Br.Sami, shukran for your dua's I need them very much. What you wrote in your post is true( the post with example of Khadijah RA etc). It is allowed in Islaam to chose your spouse based on character, imaan, taqwa etc.
Your statement: To date you are the first brother that I have ever heard say that arranged marriages are ideal in Islam.

Well, that is probably because I am not a brother.
I think arranged marriages are the traditional approach but for some people, they are not as "lucky" to find a spouse on their own, no matter how Islaamic they can be or not or involved in community Islaamic ( although inna mal 'amaalu bin niyaat). As much as I treated myself for a broken heart by reading Ibn Taymiyyah's "Disease of the Hearts and their cures"... it was broken emotinoally). So, yes it is no easy matter to accept an arranged marriage match( not that I have any other options anyway) but especially if people are downplaying arranged marriages, for this reason I was exalting it to make myself feel better( please excuse my selfish prologue and ideas). Your dua' that my personality is compatible with everyone is a very useful and much needed dua' because I dont know if that is true. Jazakullaahu khair. May the angels make the same dua' for you.

Sister Justoju and Wajahat, I am sorry with arguing with you Wajahat and ridiculing you Justoju, thanks for the dua's you have made for me and may the angels make the same dua' for you two. Perhaps one of the consoulation in an arranged marriage would be to have many strong sons that would take care of their old mother.

Abdullaah

on May 16, 2004 12:14 AM
Abdullah said

In the case of Fatima RA,
well Ali RA was brought up in the same household and he was her cousin.
Todays American Muslims would like "ewwww, I am too close to this person, I know him, he is like my brother, I GREW UP WITH HIM, he is my cousin and related to me etc"
so if you are gonna use the example, dont use it in a half manner, use it in the full manner and sense.

Would you marry your cousin you were brought up with if he or she proposed to your father?
Also, it was Rasool SAW who turned down the hands of Abu Bakr RA and Umar RA and accepted the hand of Ali for Fatima. He explained to Fatima the reason of why he was marrying her to Ali but she was silent the whole time.
He also arranged the marriage between Zaid ibn Haritha and Rasool SAW cousin Zainab.
Which is probably the most well know arranged marriage that did not work and it was because Zainab looked at Zayd as being from a lower lineage because he was an ex-slave, etc.

All the daughters of Rasool SAW were married to cousins except Zainab and the others were married to people from Qur'aish. Rasool SAW did arrange all of his daughters marriages.I am not endorsing arranged marriages or anything, I am just saying that you look at a girl for marriage after you have proposed or in the process of deciding etc but have spoken to the wali, that is my opinion I dont have evidence.
I think the evidence you quoted was not in favor really of looking at someone before you contact their wali, I could be wrong.
Abdullaah

on May 16, 2004 12:40 AM
Rami said

Asalaam Aleikum Warahmatullah wabarakatu.

To AbdetAllah (your new name if you would like to accept insha Allah):

There is a saying in the arab world: "Take advice from the mouth of the insane"...Meaning that hidaya and advice is still hidaya and advice no matter who it comes from. For it is actually very true that sometime the crazy old person talking to people in the streets is actually the one who is right.

Insha Allah please offer your advice and nasihah/hidaya insha Allah and continue to be part of the community. Your comments have not surpassed some of the ridiculousy rude/cowardly comments posted on this site and you even offered your apology...which is the most important thing in asking any kind of forgiveness. Insha Allah may Allah acept all of our apologies Ameen.

All others insha Allah:

Forgive and forget I believe is the word. If anyone one here has never wronged someone before please pray for me insha Allah. I and 6 billion other people like me have done so already. So Please Please Please brothers and sisters let us just have some rahma for each other so that other communities can look to us as a shining example of a Muslim brotherhood.

Forgive me for any harshness, arrogance, or injustice insha Allah.

Salaam Warahmatullah Wabarakatu

on May 16, 2004 10:45 AM
Justoju said

Welcome to Hidaya Abd(et)Allah :)

By the way, just so you know, when I say I am weirded out by something it doesnt mean that I think something is weird. It means I am mocking my own ability to understand and grasp most things:)

Also, the reason I said you might not be the real Abdullah is because sometimes people post under other people's names in order to defame them. I am not saying it happens on this site--but I have seen it happen in others. When I saw the reference to the expletive in the post I thought "uh oh...maybe this person is trying to defame the real Abdullah"...so I decided to post my comment saying "I dont think that thats the real Abdullah Somebody" so that the next reader wouldnt get the wrong idea....

Anyway, lots of misunderstandings it seems.

Your writing wasnt all that offensive...yet you still apologized mashaAllah. That is the mark of a strong human. I hope to learn from you inshaAllah.

Your critical thinking/comments are appreciated. Welcome aboard:)

on May 16, 2004 2:56 PM
Wajahat Gilani said

assalaamualaikum,

Abdullah Somebody, I don't know what your apologizing about but thanks, and second, no one educated looks down on arranged marriage, whatever Allah decides will happen.

And I agree neither Hassan nor I know the answer to the question he posted, Inshallah that is a question for one of our more learned elders.

walaikumsalaam
Wajahat Gilani

on May 16, 2004 4:42 PM
Sami ibn Hassan Elmansoury said

Sister Abdullah or Abdet-Allah (I'm writing both just in case you do want to be called Abdullah)-

Jazakee Allahu Khayr for your comments, and I pray that the best happens for you and for all of us Inshaa Allah. Remember that by the ahadith that I have previously mentioned, you have the right to declare your unhappiness if ever such becomes the case. I pray that Allah (SWT) makes every decision you make easy for you and that He Blesses you for your Birr Al-Walidayn, which is one of the ultimate parts of our Blessed Deen. Be optimistic and hold fast to our Deen, Allah (SWT) will shine a light into your heart and into his and you will stand by each other and love each other until the end of your time Inshaa Allahu Ta'ala. If only one one of my du'aa for you is accepted, may that be the one.

Remember that I am the one in ultimate need of your du'aa. Jazakum Allahu Khayr Wassalam Alaykum Wa Rahmat Allahee Wa Barakatu,

Brother Sami Elmansoury

on May 16, 2004 7:35 PM
Abdullaah or Ibtisam said

Thanks for the dua's, jazaakumullaahu khair, you guys have truely embarrassed me by being so kind.
No offense but this forum is started to sound really islaamic with dua's going back and forth and exchange of I am sorries.

Thank you for welcoming me to hidaya. You all are my brothers and sisters and you can call me whatever you like.
But I really really really like the name Abdullaah Somebody.
I will start signing in as Ibtisam though if it makes people comfortable.
Wasalaamu ALaykum

on May 16, 2004 7:51 PM
JustAJoe said

"I'd have to see your proof for being allowed to look in the instance of marriage (before getting the wali's permission)."

It seems that this question boils down to one word: Niqab. Is it or isnt it fardh.

The schools of thought that believe that niqab IS fardh would say that the daleel are in favor of no looking at hands/face without the wali's permission.

However, the schools of thought that believe that hands and face need not be covered would say that it is ok for the guy to get a glance without the wali's permission.

wAllahuAlim.

on May 16, 2004 11:49 PM
JustAJoe said

so really, if you want to answer that question, you will need to look at the daleel for/against niqab and scholarly opinions on this issue.

on May 16, 2004 11:52 PM
Abdullaah said

JustAJoe
Joe can be a girl's name, like Josephine was called Joe in Little Women.
LOL!

on May 17, 2004 2:43 PM
Anonymous said

WOW! it's amazing how knowledgable you guys are about this topic. i'm surprised you have nothing better to do. I really think that almost all of you gave great insight about this article. (However, i really don't think it is truly worth it) also just remember that true iman, and strong faith are the keys to everything in life, whether it be marriage of anything else.

Salamualykum

on May 18, 2004 10:51 PM
OUTCAST said

-i don't even know where to begin..so let me outline:
-my friend who is a hindu was thrown out of an isru meeting simply because he is a hindu
-i have many friends who stopped going to isru meetings because they were not sunni muslims, but shia muslims and they have felt ostracized and have heard people say cruel things about their faith
-the divider will make no difference because outside isru meetings, students will still rush over to the food court on a thursday night and stare at each other. The guys in hopes that they can maybe become "friends" with a sister and give her a ride back to her dorm.
-whats the point in wearing hijab if the bright colors and matching make-up and tight shirts that show a sisters figure will only attract the bearded isru brothers with their tight shirts and expensive cars.
-whats the point in writing articles on nasiha (sorry if i didn't spell correctly) to promote being active muslims, when those very people writing the articles are hypocritcal people who have done nothing but spread false rumors and destroyed the lives of many fellow brothers and sisters....(i realize that what i have said applies to only some members of isru)
-i know that there are great, religious, isru members who are truly pious, good religious people who would never dare (because they realize Allah is watching) even put another person down, in hopes of making themselves look better
-there are girls who wear hijab for the right reasons, who are truly the most modest, kindhearted girls i have ever met
-there are guys who are truly good guys who have nothing but respect for their fellow sisters
-many isru members are actively involved in assisting various muslims organizations and charities..and i only wish i could be so active.
(in short..well i guess its too late for that..but in short, there are good and bad people everywhere..if i go to an isru meeting i will find a good person..if i go to a Hillel meeting..i'm sure i'll find decent people there too..makes no difference..putting a divider up will make no difference..putting brothers in front of sisters in seating will make no difference..(we will only check them out from the back..which is even worse)....these minor little things don't make a difference..because there are good and bad people everywhere, and you can't control others actions..but we can control our own..so lets just try to focus on being good people, and kind to one another. u know..good muslims. We can't be good muslims without being good people first. (i hope what i have said made some sense, sorry for the random babble, i write like i think...peace)

on February 13, 2005 4:55 PM
Justoju said

AssalamuAlaikum

mashaAllah...that makes a lot of sense...welcome to HidayaOnline Outcast (wow, now thats a paradoxical invitation)

on February 13, 2005 11:21 PM
divider said

i think the divider should go back up, if someone has an issue with the divider they obviously didn't come to listen to the speaker otherwise it wouldn't matter to them...

on October 26, 2005 6:32 PM
gillette said

to divider,

You're too late. The setup has been changed to front-and-back.

on October 26, 2005 8:26 PM
divider said

SubhanAllah...is there anything that can be done about this? Did someone speak to ISRU members about this openly addressing it and asking why its even an issue?

what kind of arguments are presented by the other side? I cannot even begin to understand what their take on it might be.

on October 26, 2005 9:37 PM
divider said

(unless they openly admit they are looking forward to checking out the opposite gender)...which should make them do a double take, no?

on October 26, 2005 9:38 PM
divider said

one more question: do they make an announcement about brothers facing the front at all times like the Al Maghrib Classes?

on October 26, 2005 10:03 PM
divider said

nobody answered my questions :(

on October 29, 2005 10:12 AM
dividerlover said

we do need the divider. I am a brother and we need the divider. i am not married. I am just a regular brother and deep down we all know we need it back

Fitrah Frolic

on October 29, 2005 2:36 PM
gillette said

"one more question: do they make an announcement about brothers facing the front at all times like the Al Maghrib Classes?"

Good idea, but I think it's a given. Plus, they only make that announcement because women will be asking questions. However, at ISRU, as far as I know, they only take written ones.

on October 29, 2005 3:04 PM
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