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October 13, 2005
Ahzab (Act II)

by Gillette aka Hassan[uddin] Khaja

Read "Act I" here.

Just because sisters are more likely to be affected by their emotions in attempting to call to Allah (Ta'ala), doesn't mean that men are protected from the same fitnah. Allah (Ta'ala), in Sura Al-Kahf, Verse 28, told the Prophet not to obey those who, among other things, follow their hawaa (their base desires). Although this is apparently a warning against the mushrikeen, the Muslim knows to benefit from every single verse of the Qur'an, including those that are apparently directed to the mushrikeen.

An effect of the unity methodology that has plagued the organizations who claim to do da'wah is the willingness to go with the whims and desires of the people. An organization can't claim to do da'wah and at the same time bend to the whims and desires of the people for one simple reason: people are very resistant to da'wah, because their way of life is being criticized. Had the da'ee submitted to whims and desires, he would have no choice but to leave the one being called alone, because that's what the intended audience wants.

Among the things that sink any da'wah organization is suspicions/assumptions about their image. This ranges as far and wide as assumptions about how strict they are to how salafi/sufi they are. An organization that concerns itself with da'wah always has to be conscious of how their intended audience perceives

Part of the methodology of the Sunna is to base one's life on the narrations of the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam). The beginning of the methodology of innovations is in speaking about the religion in a manner that wanders outside of narrations.

Abu Zayd Al-Faqih wrote a few verses on the subject:

"Every speech after the Qur'an is heresy,
Except for the hadith, and except for understanding in the Religion.
And knowledge emanates from, 'It was narrated to us.' [the way in which ahaadeeth begin]
And everything other than this is a whispering from the devils."

Allah's Messenger drew a line with his hand and said, “This is the Straight Path of Allah." Then he drew lines to its right and to its left, then he said: "These are the (other) paths, there is not a single path from them except that there is a devil upon it calling to it. “

Then he recited: “And verily, this is my Straight Path, so follow it, and follow not [other] paths, for they will separate you away from His Path.”

[al-An’aam 6:153 – Saheeh : Reported by Ahmad and an-Nasa’i].

How is the path of following one's ahwaa not from the paths that a devil calls to?

If we were to attempt to derive maximum benefit from the sayings of the scholars of the past, we'd say this: that submitting to proof is far and away better than submitting to emotions, whims, and desires. Additionally, obedience to whims and desires in any matter, let alone religion, is an evil thing (I'll leave it to a scholar to determine whether or not it is a whispering from the Shaytaan).

After recognizing the methodology of those who are opposed to the Sunna (obeying everything except the narrations), the Rejecters of the Sunna proceed to act based upon their whims and desires. A person of the Sunna and intellect recognizes that years spent in worship in a manner that the Prophet (sallallahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) didn’t prescribe is less beloved to Allah (Ta’ala) than each letter in dhikr which is done out of a desire to emulate the Sunna.

If you again attempt to derive maximum benefit from this principle – that, in matters of religion, acting upon whims and desires is less favorable than acting upon The Truth – then you acknowledge that acting upon whims and desires is less favorable than acting upon what is true and based on proof.

One who is attached to their following of their whims and desires only desires from it that others embrace this methodology.

Muhammad Ibn Abdur Rahmaan al-Adramee said to a man who was speaking about an innovation, and calling the people to it: Did the Messenger of Allaah (Sallallaahu 'Alayhi Wa Sallam), Abu Bakr, 'Umar, 'Uthmaan, and 'Alee have knowledge of it, or did they not know of it? He said: They did not know of it. He said: Something which they did not have knowledge of, you know!?! The man said: Then I say that they did know it. He said: Was it sufficient for them that they did speak about it, nor call the people to it, or was it not sufficient for them? The man said: Of course it was sufficient for them. He said: So something which was sufficient for the Messenger of Allaah (Sallallaahu 'Alayhi Wa Sallam) and his Caliphs is not sufficient for you!?! So the man refrained, and the Caliph who was present there said: May Allaah not suffice for the ones who are not satisfied with what they found sufficient.

Among the many benefits of this narration is the futility in attempting to follow and call to that which the Prophet and the Companions didn't follow nor call to, because then one asserts that they knew something that the Prophet and Companions didn't. Likewise, it's futile to call to anything that is based on falsehood, including the emotions, whims, and desires. Additionally, it's not from the akhlaaq of a Muslim that, in any matter, he speaks something which isn't good or beneficial. The worst of speech is that of the one who pays no heed to what they say, because this opens the door to speaking on whims and desires.


of and relating to...
Anonymouse said

*Speaking based on whims/desires*

Nice article, mashaAllah.

on October 13, 2005 7:38 PM
Rami said

Asalaam Aleikum Warahmatullah Wabarakatu,

Off the topic a little:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/bang.html

Interestingly just shows that it takes more faith to be an aethist than to believe in God. As also in Harun Yahya's book "Evolution Deceit", people who hold tight to these ideologies will just look for any reason, and OVERLOOK SCIENTIFIC FACT, to try and get the theory to fit their religion of no God.

on October 14, 2005 12:16 AM
Servant of The Guide said

"quote" Part of the methodology of the Sunna is to base one's life on the narrations of the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam). The beginning of the methodology of innovations is in speaking about the religion in a manner that wanders outside of narrations.

Why was the prophet called a walking koran by Aisha? it is because he put into practice every verse of it, wether law giving or other, every word of it, those who are nearest to him in this are those who fear Allah the most because they will take the words of the koran to heart and act upon them out of their taqwaa for Allah. So they follow his way, the way of the prophet starts with putting into practice his FIRST sunnah, and his first sunnah is the first word Allah sent down to him, Iqra,"read" and if you can not then learn how to READ because english interpretations have alot of mistakes in them even though they claim to be from arabic scholars(the mistakes usually reflect a political goal i noticed, manipulations) The one who fears Allah the most on earth today, is the one who is nearest to the prophet and there was none who feared Allah more in this world then he he said.

As for the ahadith, he himself ordered the burning of his words that were written down, what happened to obey Allah and obey the messenger in this? there is no excuse.

on October 15, 2005 2:59 AM
Servant of the Guide said

Had those who came after the prophet obeyed the prophet all we would have today are spoken words, the real narrations and not all these written works of men. The mu'mineen would remember what is appliable to them and important to them and transmit it to those like minded mu'mineen, we are not all the same, And this is done by the wisdom of Allah. And as for the liars, they will listen to likeminded liars and these will sease to exist, wether with books or without because Allah is The Truth and no falsehood can last because He is Al Waarith(THE INHERRITER) and His righteous slaves will he make to inherrit the earth. Remember these words spoken once before :"All praise to Allah who defeated the confederates by Himself alone". The falsehood and those who are liars will sease to exist, through war and self destruction basically, Those who will inherrit the earth will be submitted to Him.

on October 15, 2005 3:09 AM
Rashid said

Inna al ardha yarithuhaa 'ibaada Allaha assaliheen

Verily the earth is inheritted by the fit slaves of Allah.

This process is constant, it is not only in the future but it is in the past, present and in the future. Justice did not stop it's course 2000 years ago nor 1400 years ago but it something that encreases because those who fail to be just destroy themselves, even if this destruction comes about by another nation that is more just. So it is of utmost importance to work on being the best human being you can, being the most just human being you can and for this you need the fear of Allah because this makes you act as justly as possible.

Chapter "the women" annisaa.
4:75 And what do you have that ye fight not in the way of Allah and the way of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and make for us from thee one who will protect; and make for us from Your side a savior!"

Wama lakum la tuqatiloona fee sabeeli Allahi waalmustad'afeena mina alrrijali waalnnisai waalwildani allatheena yaqooloona rabbana akhrijna min hathihi alqaryati alththalimi ahluha waijAAal lana min ladunka waliyyan waijAAal lana min ladunka naseeran.

look at the name of the chapter, improve on justice and realize who really is saying words like these nowadays. Do they say this in the US you think? or in Iraq against Saddam and people who wish to take his place?

on October 15, 2005 3:25 AM
Rami said

Asalaam Aleikum Warahmatullah Wabarakatu,

Brother, please clarify on what you mean by the hadith.

If you are meaning (and I could be misconstruing your words) that the ahadith books are based on falsehood and can't be relied upon you should really recheck your basis and proof of that.

Remember, many essential thing that we practice are transmitted though hadith, like the way we perform Salat and how we make adhaan.

Please let me know if that is, or is not, what you meant. I might jus tbe reading your words improperly.

on October 15, 2005 3:33 AM
Rashid said

Ok, the prophet ordered the burning of the ahadith collected(written) by the people when he heard this was done.

Later people disobeyed him by writing them down and collecting them into books, Basically what i am trying to say is words written down from scholars and written down(claimed) ahadith of the prophet have no basis of existance, unless ofcourse the scholars decide that the hadith which states that he ordered the burning of ahadith collected is a false one(i think this will happen) nevertheless falsehood will not remain.

on October 15, 2005 5:36 AM
Rashid said

""Remember, many essential thing that we practice are transmitted though hadith, like the way we perform Salat and how we make adhaan.""

This is transmitted through people not books...the rightly guided will love the rightly guided and learn from them, the liars will love the liars and learn from them because a rightly guided person will never be at peace listening and learning from a liar although he might be in ignorance for a period of time, especially when he is "new" to islam....books just makes things complecated because falsehood does not come to an end as quickly then when it is spoken instead of written down...(i am not saying all ahadith are false but it was never supposed to be written, falsehood has crept into it and who is to say what is true and what is false? can we ask the prophet? no. so there can be no proof these words come from the prophet and "he said or she said and they were righteous" is no proof, but it is a request for the listener to trust in the speaker, something impossible when it concerns truth, truth should be proven outside the words of men because of the simple fact that men can be wrong can even lie and deceive, so they are not worthy of trust without actual proof)
So I am not saying that ahadith are false but the truth of the matter is that it is supposed to be transmitted verbally and so some will remember this from what they heard and others something else, thus what is important and which lasts through the ages because of it's importance to the life and being of a rightly guided "mu'min" will remain and all other will come to an end.

on October 15, 2005 6:14 AM
Justoju said

ummm...bro, with all due respect, are you aware that the prophet (SAW) only discouraged people from writing down his hadith in the beginning of his prophethood (when there was fear of it being confused with the Quran) and then later ENCOURAGED it? This isnt what one person said. This is what ALL the sahabih said. He actually had people who would sit on his porch (where he would give classes) and who would recite back to him from what they had written of his words. He would check it and then tell them if there was any alteration to be made to it.

To us he is precious. Imagine what he must have been like to the sahabih who saw the miracle that he was and the light that shone through him of prophethood. They would save his very hair and sweat...imagine what kind of importance they would have given to his WORDS (many of which were divinely inspired but not meant to be part of the Quran). The people involved in the hadith sciences were skeptics, and gave no hadith benefit of the doubt. It had to be verified and proven to be true. The hadith that we call 'sahih' or authentic today (as opposed to the other categories) are those that are so reliable that to disagree with them would be statistically irrational.

I feel like I think I know what you are talking about. I used to say the SAME things. I was hardcore super duper anti-madhabs/anti-traditionalist scholars for 6 years. I believed that what everyone around me was following was a conspiratorial historical lie---some mistakes that had snowballed due to blind-following---and that these people were stupid (or without tawfeeq) for not realizing it. I was CONSTANTLY (whether I was sitting with family, or at a wedding, or talking to friends) pointing out innovations and how people had changed Islam and how this was the reason for the pathetic ignorant state of the muslims today. My skepticism and total contempt and distrust of 'so-called-scholars' and their books led me to eventually reject hadith all together. Why trust one set of religious people over another? They were all more or less contemporaries and part of the same problem. What Muslims today needed to do was cut all the unnecessary crap and get back to the basics.

I was then a Quran-Only'er for 2 years. It made 'sense' to me. I was one of those people that memorized certain ayah of the quran (and bits of history taken out of context) and would go around having arguments with people on their basis. I wouldnt attend certain lectures and discussions because of the contempt I had for the intelligence of the 'brainwashed' speakers (who in my eyes were no better than sheep). I was constantly at every moment, questioning and rejecting any and every thing I saw people do that was not clearly laid out in detail in the Quran. The way people prayed didnt have any logical or verifiable basis for me. A lot of things seemed to be stuff that people just 'made up' as they went along and as Islam progressed throughtout history. I rejected all translations because the people who had done them were believers of other 'so-called-scholars' and thus were biased. I started going to these group meetings where we would sit and try to translate the Quran from scratch, making up usul of translation as we went along. I was always questioning everyone and always mentally exhausted. Always arguing and always rejecting. Always delighting in my own superior intelligence and powers of reasoning. I was part of the 'saved' group. I was one of the few 'real' muslims that were left in a world of innovators. Part of an elite group that had been chosen by Allah for TRUE hidaya.

But those were the years when I truly was the most ignorant of history, methodologies within the islamic sciences, classical arabic, and logical and statistical verity. The more research I did and classes I took and scholars I spoke to the more I become convinced that the hadith were, and are, an integral part of our conservation of the 'original' deen that had been conveyed by the Prophet (SAW) to the people who learned from him. A lot of things that used to seem counter-intuitive to me, with time and learning became obvious. A man who had previously been to me nothing more than an aggrandized mail man turned out to be a divinely inspired PROPHET.

What a shocker that was.

Bro, I apologize if none of this applies to you. For all I know you might not have any of the misconceptions that I had. And I am not saying that I know everything or that I am a great muslim or that I hold guidance in my hand. We are constantly learning and developing and attempting to walk the path of truth. We all just need to make dua for each other that Allah (Swt) increase us all in guidance as He knows it, and that He makes us better muslims tomorrow than we are today. InshaAllah and Amin...

on October 15, 2005 8:07 AM
Justoju said

Our road is long...there is a lot to read and study...here is some stuff on the topic of hadith...

The Science of Hadith: An Introduction
Answered by Shaykh Abdurrahman ibn Yusuf Mangera
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=2610&CATE=120

Quran and Sunnah: Both needed
Answered by SunniPath Fiqh Q&A Support Team
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=3841&CATE=120

The Authority of Sunnah
Justice Maulana Muhammad Taqi Usmani
http://ccminc.faithweb.com/iqra/articles/authsun/

One of my favorite books on this topic (must have for everyone):

Hadith Literature: Its Origin, Development & Special Features
by Muhammad Zubayr Siddiqi
(it is available at a bunch of online bookshops. Only around 15 bucks.)

(I dont wanna sound all "Look at how far I've come. I really know what I am talking about now! Yay me!" (astaghfirullah). SubhanAllah, this feels wierd. I remember that back in the day, people would send me links and reading material but I would never read it because I was so sure of what I believed, of my 'iman'. Always so positively convinced that no one could possibly give me an argument that I (or my teachers) hadnt already heard and rejected. Astaghfirullah. Life has its ironies. We can never say "we know" but instead that "this is what our life's progression has led us to". Us, our understanding, guidance, EVERYTHING are totally dependent upon Him and His Mercy at every given moment.
May Allah (Swt) guide us all to true Hidaya as HE knows it, and keep us from being blinded by our arrogance and self-assuredness. InshaAllah and Amin.)

on October 15, 2005 8:25 AM
montgomerywali said

"Life has its ironies. "

it sure does. like the irony of how justojou has time to post ESSAYS on this website (yes i actually came on here to find out how ur doing:)) but i cant get her to reply to an email from me (scratching head in confusion)

hehe. hope all is well with u....duahs are always requested:)

on October 15, 2005 2:11 PM
Rashid said

When they decided to write down the ahadith AFTER the prophet died, Aisha and people with her where against it. but as usually the majority wins, not this time.

on October 15, 2005 4:24 PM
Rashid said

I was where you are now by the way, i used to adhere to methodology and listen to scholars, but my heart never was at ease untill i started reading koran in arabic and i found the safety i longed for. Whatever you did, or teacher you followed obviously something was wrong, or you could not handle being alone physically or you felt you would gain something by accepting these kind of words(from these links, and i read)

on October 15, 2005 6:26 PM
Rashid said

So what did you gain?

on October 15, 2005 6:27 PM
Rashid said

brotherhood? sisterhood? well i do not need to have people physically around to know i have like minded people as brothers and sisters, even devils have brothers and sisters.

on October 15, 2005 6:28 PM
Rashid said

So basically having brotherhood does not mean you are right.

on October 15, 2005 6:29 PM
Justoju said

1. You asked the question of what was gained, assumed my answer, and refuted. Thats fine, a nice Straw Man argument (man I miss my philosophy classes), except you werent refuting 'my' answer.

Now, since you asked what was gained, I'll assume that you want honesty and I wont try to cover up the fruits for fear that you or the world will think me immodest.
What was gained by all this was a greater sweetness in worship and a greater love for my brethren than I had before. What was gained was the ability to better appreciate 1400 years of scholarship and the desire to learn more about it. What was gained was the ability to give benefit of the doubt to people and to respect their intelligence. What was gained was more respect for the title of 'Messenger' and 'Scholar'. What was gained was more motivation to study the Quran than I had before and a deeper relationship with its words. What was gained was a feeling of secuity, peace, trust that I (as screwed up as I was and am) was in good hands. What was gained was a state where the heart became less hard and tears flowed with more ease. What was gained was a relationship with Allah where I could 'feel' His Presence more in my heart and prayers. This last one alone is enough in my eyes.

I have a lot of work to do on myself and a lot of nafs to control, but I know that what I feel now is considerably more than what I felt before. I know that what I know now of history and methodology and evolution of islamic sciences is more than what I knew before. I have heard the same from many other people I know who went from Quran-Only to Traditional.

So no, I didnt do it for 'brotherhood'. I have always been something of a loner and never depended much on people for motivation or a pat on the back. Muslims can be ignorant and you'll always have someone or another calling you a heretic for some reason or another. Big deal.

2. "When they decided to write down the ahadith AFTER the prophet died, Aisha and people with her where against it. but as usually the majority wins, not this time."

Thats what 'they'll' tell you because believing otherwise would be too problematic. Historically though, Abu Bakr (RA) and other sahaabah had many hadith written down during the time (and with the knowledge and consent) of the Prophet (Saw). The hadith just werent compiled and put into one body until after his (Saw) passing away. It wasnt necessary until then...the same way that it hadnt been too necessary until after the passing away of the Prophet to make copies of the Quran and send them to different parts of the Muslim world. The methodology of the islamic sciences is a gorgeous thing.

The nature of groups is to accept the facts that conform to its ideology and reject all others as false. Sometimes things are inferred or straight up made up. A shia from Pakistan was recently telling me how some sahabih had come to Fatima (Ra) while she was pregnant and kicked her in the stomach. Wa naoodhobillah.

3. "but my heart never was at ease untill i started reading koran in arabic and i found the safety i longed for."

You speak as if you believe that the two things--reading the Quran in Arabic and believing in traditional scholarship--are mutually exclusive and that one cannot co-exist with the other. Thats a Black or White, False Dilemma argument. I am in the middle east right now at an institute that specializes in Quranic arabic. All we learn and hear all day is fussha. We are either having discussions in fussha or doing the i'raab (grammatical declension) of fussha sentences. My arabic is still really ridiculously crappy, and I have a hella long way to go, but I dont find that my learning arabic and reading the Quran in arabic has given me reason to step off the traditional path. The people who have encouraged me to learn arabic the most have been traditional scholars. Some of the greatest intellectuals and socially aware humanitarians that I have encountered have also happened to be traditionalists. Stereotypes and misconceptions are not dispelled in theory alone, by talking about abstract terms, but by meeting living examples that force the walls in one's mind to sway.

My guess is that you, like many american muslims, have seen a dearth of 'intellectual' islam around you, and have so assumed that there is no such thing as an 'intellectual' islam within the traditional realm. We end up asking ourselves, where is the art, the beauty, the poetry, the emphasis on the social sciences, the appreciation for the flapping of a bird's wings that brought tears into the eyes of the muslims of the golden period?...Why is it all so dry today?...where is the juice?...

My suggestion:
Shaykh Abdal Hakim Murad (aka T.J. Winter)
http://www.masud.co.uk/

on October 15, 2005 11:48 PM
Rashid said

Inna allatheena amanoo waallatheena hadoo waalnnasara waalssabieena man amana biAllahi waalyawmi alakhiri waAAamila salihan falahum ajruhum AAinda rabbihim wala khawfun AAalayhim wala hum yahzanoona

Verily those who found safety and security(in faith, amanoo) and those who guided with the guidance(jews) and the saviours, helpers(christians) and the sabieens, WHOEVER secures and has safety in Allah and the last day and worked a mending work, then for them is their reward with their Lord, and NO FEAR IS UPON THEM NOR DO THEY GRIEF.

on October 16, 2005 12:31 AM
Rami said

Asalaam Aleikum Warahmatullah Wabarakatu,

Muslims (many, but not all) are usually like rubberbands. They have to go to one end and then another before finally taking the middle path.

I think you are somewhere in the second stage.

Just remember, the deen is easy. People usually can't last on the one extreme or the other if that is, they are really seeking the right path.

on October 16, 2005 1:21 AM
ManBeast said

Rashid, if you want to be taken seriously, you have to address the issues that you are debating...even if you think you will "lose" the argument...because that is the only way to learn...seems like you don't deal with the information presented to you...you circumvent and take refuge in simple comments and hadiths that don't directly address what you yourself were debating...anybody can save face...but if you want to increase in knowledge, you have to admit ignorance and listen to learn or risk looking like a fool

on October 16, 2005 1:25 AM
Rashid said

what did i not take in of information, i think what rami said is reasonable. But how can one expect the trust of the other when it comes to ahadith which can not be confirmed wether they are true or not? without proof except the words of other people?

Proof should be confirmed in the material world, it is not words because if this is so then christians are right also when they say Jesus died on the cross because someone whom they loved told them so, or because it says so in their book.

on October 16, 2005 3:17 AM
Rashid said

I do not mind losing face or lose, because that would mean gaining to me and not losing at all.

on October 16, 2005 3:18 AM
Rashid said

The Prophet said that we would make the same mistakes as those who came before us,

The acceptance of words of preachers as truth based on a trust and love rather then on proof is the same as christians who trust and love their preacher and accept his words as truth(and they feel good with the lies they accept as truths too, so feeling good is no garantee, but fearing Allah is the most fitting in all affairs).

So what counts for them also counts for us...because we are human beings and we make the same mistakes(as the prophet foretold), the only thing is some people like to see themselves as better then the others.

I do not say hadith are false but i do say that the written works are in conflict with the words of the prophet himself. He ordered the burning of his sayings, and he did this in wisdom and it was not because as the scholars claim because he was afraid it would be mixed with the koran, this is impossible, why? because the koran came down in a period of 24 years(+/-) and so when the faithful heard it piece by piece from the prophet they learned it by head and it was easy because 1. they loved the koran, 2.they had time to do so because it was spread out over 24 years, the faithful recited it to eachother and they corrected eachother when one made a mistake. In this way the koran was perservered, it is possible for one to make a mistake but not for all to make the same mistake all at the same time. So in no way could koran be confused with hadith, not taking into account the major linguistic difference between the two(you can easily make out what is koran and what is hadith when you hear it).

So the prophet ordered the burning of his sayings when he heard them being written down, how much so would this apply to the words of those who came after him? the claimed scholars for instance?

See alot of injustice comes forth because of holding the hadith as equal to the koran or even above it, by claiming verses are abrogated by the prophet(where is the proof people?), no way does Allah put words in the koran that do not count anymore because of the simple fact that we can ONLY trust Him for the truth and people can make mistakes lie or deceive so they are not worthy of this kind of trust. The truth is too important to just trust people for it.

on October 16, 2005 3:40 AM
Rashid said

The Prophet said that we would make the same mistakes as those who came before us,

The acceptance of words of preachers as truth based on a trust and love rather then on proof is the same as christians who trust and love their preacher and accept his words as truth(and they feel good with the lies they accept as truths too, so feeling good is no garantee, but fearing Allah is the most fitting in all affairs).

So what counts for them also counts for us...because we are human beings and we make the same mistakes(as the prophet foretold), the only thing is some people like to see themselves as better then the others.

I do not say hadith are false but i do say that the written works are in conflict with the words of the prophet himself. He ordered the burning of his sayings, and he did this in wisdom and it was not because as the scholars claim because he was afraid it would be mixed with the koran, this is impossible, why? because the koran came down in a period of 24 years(+/-) and so when the faithful heard it piece by piece from the prophet they learned it by head and it was easy because 1. they loved the koran, 2.they had time to do so because it was spread out over 24 years, the faithful recited it to eachother and they corrected eachother when one made a mistake. In this way the koran was perservered, it is possible for one to make a mistake but not for all to make the same mistake all at the same time. So in no way could koran be confused with hadith, not taking into account the major linguistic difference between the two(you can easily make out what is koran and what is hadith when you hear it).

So the prophet ordered the burning of his sayings when he heard them being written down, how much so would this apply to the words of those who came after him? the claimed scholars for instance?

See alot of injustice comes forth because of holding the hadith as equal to the koran or even above it, by claiming verses are abrogated by the prophet(where is the proof people?), no way does Allah put words in the koran that do not count anymore because of the simple fact that we can ONLY trust Him for the truth and people can make mistakes lie or deceive so they are not worthy of this kind of trust. The truth is too important to just trust people for it.

on October 16, 2005 3:40 AM
Justoju said

no one is blindly accepting anything. If you would just go and take a class on hadith methodology and the evolution of the hadith sciences you would know that.

I have an exam on jawazim coming up in a few hours and will comment more on this later...

on October 16, 2005 4:39 AM
Rashid said

Does anyone understand me?
she is taking classes and listening to words of people about the words of other people(who claim they come from the prophet) and she accepts their theory and methodology,
but looking at christians who do the same, what makes her right and them wrong by listening to their scholars and their words about words claiming they came from apostles?

Is it only because in the koran it says Issa a s did not die on the cross and he was not His son? or is it because there is no proof in the physical world that The Creator has a son and that he did die for the sin of man? except men's words which obviously can not be accepted as truth?

MOREOVER the reminder and confirmation(al dhikr al mutabbith wa huwa al quraan) clearly tells us this is a lie. How is it a lie? because there is no proof for it at all except the words of men who have the ability to lie deceive and be wrong.

Here is proof brothers and sisters, there is a creation, so there is a creator. He sustains us through His creation so we should be thankful to Him, only a liar is not thankful to Allah...thats why kafir(disbeliever) also means one who is ungrateful/ unthankful. There is no proof in the world that He has sons or daughters, nor that anyone died for our sins on a cross, these are the words of men and they can not be taken as truth because there is no proof for them in the physical world which Allah created for us as signs.

on October 16, 2005 4:59 AM
Rashid said

No offense Justoju by taking you as an example like that, i know you probebly have the best intentions by the way i read your replies, but i just am trying to make something clear, i know some of you might not understand or have conflicting thoughts about what i am saying and i understand that, because it is a struggle, some of you get frustrated and impatient with what i am saying.

But just remember getting frustrated with someones words or even angry makes one misunderstand and not achieve understanding. And thus every reply given will be wrong. There is nothing i really can say but Allah guides whom He wishes.

on October 16, 2005 5:38 AM
ManBeast said

Rashid, you will continue to be in ignorance so long as you maintain this path in avoiding scholarly explanations, especailly regarding hadith. Justoju included some links on hadith. Did you visit them? What is your agenda...understanding the matter or trying to be right? Also, you haven't addressed all of the points that she made. Instead, you totally avoided all she said to continue with the same facetious point of view over and over again. This is the behavior of someone who runs from knowledge out of the fear that it will ruin his own personal perception of reality. You want to be taken seriously here? Read what the scholars say about your point of view before you try to question any part of Islam. But don't, under any circumstance, attempt the foolish endeavor to interpret Islam on your own. Such mistakes have no good end.

on October 16, 2005 6:10 AM
Justoju said

The difference between us and Christians is METHODOLOGY. If you examine their method for verifying whether something truly came from their Prophet (AS), you find that it is weak and has many holes. The methods that the sahabih developed for verification of a hadith's authenticity are far more sophisticated. I encourage you to take a class on the origins and methodologies of the hadith sciences (I am not asking you to go take a class where the aim is to memorize hadith or discuss them one by one). If you dont want to take a class, buy the book that I recommended. At the very least read the links I posted.

When I was Quran-Only we used to LOVE comparing Muslims to Christians. But that was only because I had not done enough research at that point to know the IMMENSE differences between the evolution of their code and that of ours. The Muslims at that time KNEW what had happened to the Christians, and KNEW how it happened, and took all the appropriate measures to prevent it. What were those measures?

READ THE BOOK...

on October 16, 2005 8:28 AM
asef said

Salaam Everyone:

May your Ramadaan be full of Allah's Blessing and Maghfirah...Ameen

This is interesting discussion here.

I just have one question for Br. Rashid.

Based on your current point of view, do you even read/consult/refer to any Hadeeth at all towards understanding Islaam, or are you solely using Quraan?...And if you are using some Hadeeths or Books of Hadeeths, which one are those?

Jazakum Allah Khairan.
Ma'Assalaama

on October 16, 2005 3:12 PM
Rashid said

Islaam is an arabic word, but the way is universal, it is to submit for the sake of peace(with Allah above everyone else), by obeying Him and thus working to achieve Him being pleased.(His Peace) we say "the peace IS upon them" when we talked about the prophets and messengers because they have achieved the peace which is the peace of Allah through their completing their mission on earth by obeying Allah.(i never heard any scholar ever explain it like this, why? ignorance of the true meaning of islaam) So islaam is really simple and not difficult to understand and really someone without any books can come to the same conclusion(thankfulness and to work to achieve everlasting peace with the creator and sustainer),

I am not against ahadith like i said, but i do not believe it has a legitimacy of being written down but rather it should have stayed according to the sunnah, A VERBAL NARRATION. The issue of written words of men, ahadith and scholary works of the past, is that they have become a source of injustice in the world, in that the koran can not be used to justify these injustices because the koran contradicts any injustice, but some find legitimacy through 1. ahadith 2. the works of scholars 3. interpretation of the koran according to ahadith or works of scholars to the extent of abrogating verses that do not fit in their political view.(how dare they hold words of men above the koran in that with these they make verses not appliable anymore?) Allah protects the koran and no one can change that, but ofcourse they can try to make you accept words from other sources and build a methodology which makes it impossible for someone to study the koran without their words next to it, it's a farce and a fraud of the highest level.

on October 16, 2005 5:07 PM
ManBeast said

What is a farce and fraud at the highest level is Rashid's credibility. This is one big joke. I know this for sure now. We've all been had. No one can be this incompetent on purpose. Unless he's employed by Zionists, or VHP, or CIA, or the like. To the people of this forum, save your time and energy. There is no benefit in trying to guide those who choose to follow their own opinion.

on October 16, 2005 5:50 PM
Rashid said

Allahu Akbar means Allah is greater, not great or greatest as those who wish to keep you thinking in the box(their box) might want you to believe, asghar is smaller akbar is greater, So Allahu Akbar.

The prophet said we would make the same mistakes as those who were before us, you wish the christians and jews to take a critical look into their methodologies and beliefs which are based on man made words which they hold as true but you forget yourselves, if they did it, what makes you believe the arabs would not? are'nt we all humanbeings?

Allah says that the power and might belongs to Allah, the messenger and the faithful, this NEVER changed and still counts today. So if you feel the power is to someone else and you feel threatened then know you are wrong in your perception, the threat is from Allah because falsehood is an ending thing and it is weak, liars only are able to rule through distortions and adding to the faith so that they can have control over their followers.

Allah is greater.

on October 16, 2005 6:43 PM
ManBeast said

Allah is greater than the ignorant who think themselves or their misguided opinions' important...all the misguided ignorant fools in the world can create their own ideas about islam, hadith, methodology, etc...but it will never steer the majority of this ummah off the straight path...many deviants have sprouted from the ranks of the believers, but alhamdulillah, through sound knowledge, the scholars have successfully been able to refute them so that their jahil beliefs have not withstood the test of time...Thank Allah for the righteous scholars of this ummah

on October 16, 2005 7:10 PM
Rashid said

Have you ever wondered who the ghurabaa (the strangers) are which are spoken of by the prophet?

"islaam(submission for the sake of peace)came as something strange and it will become strange again, so toobaa for the ghurabaa(the strangers)

ghurabaa(strangers)
gharb (where the sun sets, the west)
ghurraab (the raven)
ghareeb (strange)

see the connection between these words? there is so much knowledge which you do not have because of being stuck in man made methodologies instead of following the guidance of Allah which is in His created nature which has no ability to lie and His words which are the reminder, the koran.

As for your majority of the ummah, Allah says in the koran "not are the good and the wrong the same, although the multitude(of the wrong),
be impressive to you".
Why can't you have patience with me and resort to threats and trying to scare others off from reading what i say? you fear people being misguided by my words? baseless fear i tell you, only Allah can guide and save from misguidance not you or your scholars.

Also,

"Had you followed the majority of those on earth they would surely cause you to become misguided."

how can one claim to follow the way of the prophet while not taking the words sent down to him as the words to onesself? if one wishes to be like the prophet, then let him act upon the words that came to the prophet, even if it says :"qul"(say) then obey Allah and say it, and let him not disregard it as being adressed to the prophet only."

If you think in numbers then i tell you, numbers do not matter but what matters is the way of Allah and His purpose. Justice is the way of Allah, and the unjust will come to an end, either by leaving that which makes them unjust and thus fearing Allah and seeking His help alone, or they will end together with the injustice.
Be aware that the threat is from Allah for all of us on earth to increase in the matter of justice, because if we fail, no matter how powerful we are, there is always one more powerful then us whom Allah gave power. The US might be the most powerful nation on earth, it's threat comes from somewhere else. We all are forced to improve on justice because those who hold knowledge and understanding realize that our existance depends on it. The unjust will come to an end, history and we see it has taught us that.(Pharao who failed to be just, the middle ages where workers had no rights came to an end, and slavery came to an end, history shows us that justice did not stop 2000 years ago or 1400 years ago it is something that keeps on improving, with the unjust being destroyed or leaving the injustice.)

Chapter the women(i stress realize the name of this chapter)
verse 75:

What do you have that you do not fight in the way of Allah and the way of the weakened, men women and childeren who say: "Our lord rescue us from this town which it's people are unjust, and make for us from Your side a guardian protector, and make for us from Your side a savior."

This verse has deffinatly to do with women, these words are not spoken in the US, but rather in places like Iraq and Afghanistan against the social opression put in place by men. Why does it have to do with women? if a social system is created by men in which women are done injustice it will create a society that will eventually be ruined, the women are the ones to raise the next generations of the societies, and if their men treat them unjustly they will develope mechanisms to defend themselves against this injustice, they will try to be as cunning as possible out of fear, and this will reflect in the way they raise their childeren(with fear and pain) and this will reflect in the society which these kids will become part of, this society will be corrupted and eventually be ruined. Even if it is done by an outside force. Call it the defense mechanism Allah put in place to make sure women are not done injustice.

The Prophet saws said:"the best amongst you is the best towards their women"

I believe i explained why, and now remember the United States of America has as a symbol "lady liberty" the woman holding the tourch of light in one hand and the laws in the other."

It's about learning from history and feeling the threat and realizing where it comes from, help eachother on righteousness.


on October 16, 2005 8:02 PM
ManBeast said

The Importance of Following the Sunnah
by Harun Yahya

The Qur'an is the last divine book, which was revealed from Allah as a declaration and guidance to mankind. It is an explanation of all things and means for men to be rightly guided. In many verses of the Qur'an, it is commanded to obey the prophet of Allah. This is quite a significant point because understanding the Qur'an fully can only be possible with following the Sunnah of the prophet.

The Sunnah is the explanation of the Qur'an. It is the creed of ahl-i Sunnah, which has been constituted with collecting true hadiths of the prophet Muhammad (sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam), and interpretation of these hadiths by great scholars in later times.

It's worth dwelling upon a point here. The Sunnah is not a concept that can be dealt with separately from the Qur'an. In the Qur'an, it has been mentioned that the prophet removes heavy burdens, makes rules, teaches the ummah (society) the open and hidden meanings of the Qur'an. As a matter of fact, when we look at the practices of Sunnah, we see that the prophet of Allah gave His companions a lot of information about numerous subjects. This information was then interpreted by scholars of the time, continued to be practised in daily lives and has passed on to us generations to generations.

Allah has informed in the surah Al-e Imran that the Prophet had the characteristic of teaching the Qur'an and purifying mankind:

Certainly Allah conferred a benefit upon the believers when He raised among them a Messenger from among themselves, reciting to them His communications and purifying them, and teaching them the Book and the wisdom, although before that they were surely in manifest error. (Surah Al-e Imran, 164)

It would be useful to attract attention to the phrase "teaching the book and the wisdom". Because, It is not possible to understand the Qur'an fully and practise its commands without following the sunnah of the prophet of Allah. Our religion is a whole only with the Qur'an and the Sunnah. At that times when the Qur'an was revealed, the people around the prophet learned and practised the commands of our religion as required by looking at the examples of the prophet. Indeed, the prophet has been an important example with His life, where he practised the commands of the religion, for us to understand the Qur'an.

We can give "salat" (ritual prayers) as a clear example to understanding the commands of the religion. As well known, in Islam, performing salat 5 times a day is an obligation and there are verses giving general information about how to perform it, how to perform ablution (wash). However, we can understand how exactly we should perform prayers only by looking at sunnah. Because there is no detailed information in the verses about the way of praying, what to say in prayer, the way of man and woman's performing the prayer, the degree of importance of the prayers, the details of ablution, what nullifies ablution. We can learn such details only by looking at Sunnah of the prophet.

As another example, we can mention the suggestions of the prophet about Friday and the things He said about Friday prayer. Beside the subjects such as speaking that which is best, cleanness, foods, modesty, there are verses in the Qur'an about obligations such as fasting, ablution and hajj (pilgrimage). However, there is no detailed information about those worships in the verses. We learn the detail information about how to perform these worships from the interpretations of the scholars about the words and habits of the prophet.

Sunnah has ected the lives of Muslims throughout the history, of all past scholars of Islam, shaping their worships. Since the era of our prophet, which has been hundreds of years, the Muslims have worshipped in compliance with the Sunnah. Worships like praying five times a day, fasting, giving charity and sacrificing have not changed until today as they have been always performed according to the Sunnah. For this reason, starting discussions upon the worships, which have been practised for hundreds of years without change, and speculating about the subjects like time of the prayers, the number of the rakaats (units) are completely unnecessary. All of them are obligatory worships, whose details are described in the Sunnah. As a matter of fact, when we look at the Qur'an, we see many verses in the Qur'an about following the Messenger. In a verse, for example, Allah commands us to obey the Messenger as follows:

Surely We have sent you as a witness and as a bearer of good news and as a warner, That you may believe in Allah and His Messenger and may aid him and revere him; and (that) you may declare His glory, morning and evening. Surely those who swear allegiance to you do but swear allegiance to Allah; the hand of Allah is above their hands. Therefore whoever breaks (his faith), he breaks it only to the injury of his own soul, and whoever fulfils what he has covenanted with Allah, He will grant him a mighty reward. (Surah Al-Fath, 8-10)

Whoever obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys Allah, and whoever turns back, so We have not sent you as a keeper over them. (Surah An-Nisa, 80)

The point one needs to pay attention in the verses is that they emphasise on the concept of "obeying the Messenger". This point shows us that following the Messenger, in other words following His commands and rules is a worship that Allah brought as an obligation. When we look at the verses, we again see that our prophet has the authority to enjoin and forbid things. For example, the verse ".... and whatever the Messenger gives you, accept it, and from whatever he forbids you, keep back, and be careful of (your duty to) Allah. (Surah Al-Hashr, 7)shows that the prophet may forbid certain things for His ummah, apart from those things that are forbidden in the Qur'an. Besides, it is again informed in the verses that the believers took the matters that they did not understand to the prophet and the prophet judged for them.

Those conducts, on the other hand, such as opposing the Messenger's being a judge, or disrespecting His judgements are described in the verses as "transgression". The certainty of the judgement of our prophet and the need for obeying His judgement is stressed in another verse as follows:

It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path. (Surah Al-Ahzab, 36)

As seen up to here, Allah commands in His verses a strict obedience to His prophet. For this reason, Islam can only be lived through practising the Sunnah along with the Qur'an. The explanations made in the verses related to this subject are certain. Therefore, putting forward a claim of turning away from the sunnah of the prophet is completely opposite to the essence of the Qur'an.

Imam Malik, one of the greatest Islam scholars, compared the Sunnah of the prophet to the ark of Noah and said : The Sunnah of the Prophet Mohammad (sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam) is like the Ark of Noah. Whoever embarks upon it reaches salvation and whoever refuses is drowned.". The true salvation will be realised only when the creed of ahl-i Sunnah is understood by everybody and prevails in the society.

on October 16, 2005 9:49 PM
BintSaeed said

Assalaamu Alaykum,

I may be ignorant and for the reason alone I wont contribute to this post however what I will say is this; long post tend to become intimidating...link it bros and sisters..if u have a website that the other should check out link and rather than post the whole piece..

may Allah SWT guide us all and keep us from being divided..ameen!

on October 16, 2005 10:40 PM
Rashid said

[quote] "The Qur'an is the last divine book, which was revealed from Allah as a declaration and guidance to mankind. It is an explanation of all things and means for men to be rightly guided. In many verses of the Qur'an, it is commanded to obey the prophet of Allah. This is quite a significant point because understanding the Qur'an fully can only be possible with following the Sunnah of the prophet." [end quote]

It says messenger or sent one (rasool) not prophet(nabiy)
Obey Allaha and obey the messenger,
Atee'oo Allaha wa atee'oo arrasoola,

The messenger or "sent one" is he who comes with the truth even though you were in manifest error before he came. The truth is from Allah because He is The Truth(al haqq)

Allah also says in the koran:
wa salaamun 'alaa al mursaleen "and (a) peace is upon the sent ones (messengers)

also He says in the koran:

"Whenever a messenger COMES to you with the truth, then who ever obeys him......"

If you read the koran in arabic you will bump into these words and they will make you think if you are seeking the truth.

on October 17, 2005 1:08 AM
Rashid said

Do not think that you are exempted of confirming the truth or denying it, or that you are exempted from the trial of wether to accept a messenger or deny one. Fear Allah.

on October 17, 2005 1:10 AM
Rami said

Asalaam Aleikum Warahmatullah Wabarkatu,

Are you saying that Muhammed (peace and blessings be upon him) is not a Messenger of God? Or not the Messenger of God referred to above and in the Qu'ran?

From The qu'ran (The term, in arabic, which is used...Rasul):

3:144. "Muhammad is no more than an apostle"

4:79 "We have sent thee as an apostle to (instruct) mankind. And enough is Allah for a witness."

7:158 "Say (O Muhammad): O mankind! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah to you all "

on October 17, 2005 1:32 AM
Rashid said

Fa hal min mudhakkir.

on October 17, 2005 1:33 AM
asef said

Salaam:

Pardon my interruption!

Whats the aim of this long and winded discussion, seems like we are spinning wheels in here.

I am assuming no one is trying to impress upon the other their point of views in the hope of making a believer out of this exercise...now that would be wishful thinking :)

The points and rebuttals have been made...lets move on to another topic for a healthy discussion, insha'Allah.

Ma'Assalaama

on October 17, 2005 1:46 AM
Rami said

Asalaam Aleikum Warahmatullah Wabarakatu,

Brother, If you were truly content with your beliefs you would be at peace...With yourself, with others, and with the world around you.

Examine why Allah (subhanna wa taala) would make his religion so hard that only a few people could understand it. Or so hard to distinguish right from wrong that everything has to be considered false.

The deen is eaaasy man.

If I don't hear or read Qu'ran for a day or two I feel out of whack. I listen to Qu'ran whenever I am in my car, in the morning and in the afternoon, I recite it before I go to bed.

Yet I write about what I learn, what I observe ,and from what Allah has taught me of knowledge and wisdom, alhamdullilah.

"...Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth." (2:255).

Read my writing and the writing of some of the others. Can not knoweledge be taken from these articles? Can my words and thoughts tht have been given by Allah (subhanna wa taala) not be reasonable? Can they not help us to become better Muslims and gain a better understanding of Islam.

The Qu'ran is the word of Allah (subhanna wa taala), that does not mean though that we have silence our ears and minds to the words of man. We have been doing this our whole lives.

May Allah guide you and guide us, especially in this month of Ramadan.


2:257. "...Allah is the Protector of those who have faith: from the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light...."

on October 17, 2005 1:59 AM
Rami said

Asalaam Aleikum Warahmatullah wabarakatu,

It's good to hear from you again Br. Asef.

Did you get married yet? Are we invited to California if you didn't?

Although, I probably couldn;t go out there anyway because I have school. The last time I went out there I had Salmon every single day. Better from the Pacific then our stinky old polluted jersey shoreline.

on October 17, 2005 2:05 AM
Rashid said

Muhammad(the peace which is the peace of Allah is upon him because of his obediance and fullfilling the mission given to him by Allah) came with the truth, the koran and thus he most certainly is the messenger of Allah.

on October 17, 2005 4:18 AM
Rashid said

Wa alaikum asalaam warahmatu Allaha wa barakaatuhu wa maghfiratuh.

on October 17, 2005 4:39 AM
Rashid said

Could you also read the verse from the koran where it says: "whenever a messenger from amongst you comes..."

on October 17, 2005 4:41 AM
jinnzaman said

Bismillah.

Assalamu alaikum

I have typed up a response that addresses many of the objections to hadeeth.

The response can be found here:
http://s14.invisionfree.com/Shield_of_Islam/index.php?showtopic=214

masalama

on October 17, 2005 5:39 PM
jinnzaman said

Continuation of Discussion on the Forum linked above:

Bismillah.

May this reach you in the best state of health and iman. Ameen.

InshaAllah, I'm a little confused by your posts, so inshaAllah, allow me to elucidate my previous claims.

1. The Quran is a mutawattir transmission. In terms of mutawattir transmissions, it is defined, as you correctly stated, by being narrated by so many people that it could not have been incorrect. Without referring to the Quran itself, how can you ascertain that the Quran that we have today is the actual Quran that was revealed by the Prophet (saw)? You cannot quote that the Quran states itself to be infallible and protected unless you accept the method through which it has been preserved and if you accept the method of such a preservation, then you must also be willing to accept the hadeeth that were preserved in such a manner as well. Thus, in the least, you should at least accept mutawattir sahih hadeeth since they are on par with the preservation of the Quran itself. Also, keep in mind that both the Quran and Hadeeth are from Allah. In terms of hadeeth, a hadeeth's grading is not based only on its matn, but also in terms of its narrators. Thus, those hadeeth which have no problems in their sanad are accepted on the same grounds as the Quran is accepted as a mutawattir transmission. Secondly, your contention that the hadeeth contradict with the Quran or were somehow 'invented' is also strange. With regards to the prior claim, the science of ilm ul hadeeth scrutinizes hadeeth and examines whether or not they contradict the Quran or not and if they do, they are obviously rejected. This was mentioned in the appendix of the article written above. With regards tot he claim that the hadeeth were fabricated or changed, the hadeeth have been preserved from the earliest times both in writing as well as in memory and we have copies of both and the purpose of the scrutiny of the chains of narrators is to examine this. It is important to note that the text of Imam Ahmad's Musnad and Imam Bukhari's text are virtually identical to the text compiled by Hammam who was a student of Abu Hurayra (ra) who was the largest narrator of hadeeth.

The same people who preserved the Quran were the same people who preserved the hadeeth. If you claim hadeeth should be rejected because the people were untrustworthy or did it for ulterior motives then, logically speaking, in order to be consistent, you would have to also reject the Quran because they were the same people. Allahu Alim, but you seemed to be implying that the Sahabah (ra) disobeyed the Prophet (saw) and recorded the hadeeth. However, as I pointed out in my response, the Sahabah (ra) loved the Prophet (saw) to extreme degrees and the prohibition of recording hadeeth came from the hadeeth itself (which brings about a paradox) and not the Quran, there are other hadeeth that describe how the Sahabah (ra) were granted permission from the Prophet (saw) to record hadeeth and there were specific examples were the hadeeth were recorded on a regular and consistent basis, as was the case of Anis ibn Malik (ra). Furthermore, the hadeeth with regards to prohibition were given in a specific context: either to young boys or scribes and the reason behind it was to preserve both the Quran and hadeeth.

Now my question to you is this: Where is the hadeeth that prohibits the recording of hadeeth and how exactly do you know it is authentic and how do you know the amount of its narrators (ie is ahad or mashur or mutawattir)? In order for you to determine whether or not this hadeeth is authentic, you have to look at its chain of narrators and that requires that you go to the ulema of the hadeeth (the muhaditheen) and go back down the chain through the Sahabah (ra) to the Prophet (saw). However, if you utilize the verse of the Quran as a prohibition on going to the Ulema and the Sahabah, then you are in reality, contradicting your own method. Either you affirm the hadeeth and that means that you affirm the permissibility of utilizing the Ulema and Sahaba in a chain of narrators (which you have to do anyway in order to accept the authenticity of the transmission of the preservation of the Quran which was done by the Sahabah (ra) and the Ulema), or you have to reject the claim that hadeeth is authentic, which means that the prohibihaon is not based on sound evidence, which means that it is permissible to record hadeeth since no verse from the Quran prohibits the recording of hadeeth, although there are a plethora which order the believers to "Obey Allah and His Messenger" and the two clauses are never seperated.

Furthermore, you claim that the Sunnah can be known through only through the actions of the community and not through written hadeeth, however, this is contradictory as well. If you claim that following the sunnah of the actions transmitted through mutawattir chains is superior, then you must also recognize that the recording of the hadeeth is also transmitted through mutawattir chains (in some cases). Thus, it would be contradictory to affirm one and deny the other. Also, on what grounds do you accept the prayer or fasting that has been transmitted through the community? The community does not always pray the same. The community is divided by sects such as the Shia, ahmadiyyah, etc. Furthermore, Ahl us Sunnah waal Jamaah is divided into the four madhaib of the Hanafis, Shafi'i, Maliki, and Hanbali. These are Ulema, who also happen to utilize hadeeth that also contain the sahabah in their chains. Thus, if you claim to follow the transmission of mutawattir practices, then you have to go through the Ulema and through the Sahabah, which would also contradict your original position.

3. The very purpose of the science of hadeeth is to seperate authentic hadeeth from unauthentic hadeeth. If a person claims that all hadeeth are invalid, he must bring forth some conclusive evidence, an ayah of the Quran, or other hadeeth, or must show how each hadeeth is fabricated through conclusive proofs. Why? Because RasulAllah (saw) is more than just a postman, he is a Messenger of Allah (swt) and when Allah (swt) said "Obey Allah" He added "And His Messenger" in such an emphatic manner that one will not find a single ayah were these two clauses are not joined together (although there are some which mention obeying RasulAllah (saw) and does not make mention of obeying Allah ) How can one obey RasulAllah (saw) if one has no interaction with him? It is obviously done through his sayings, his actions, and his prohibitions. One cannot obey RasulAllah (saw) otherwise. How do you propose on obeying RasulAllah (saw) without going to the hadeeth? Mutawattir transmitted actions? But are not these very transmissions sent through the Sahabah (ra) and the Ulema as well? How else can you affirm their authenticity?

4. Where in the Quran is Abraham Lincoln mentioned? How can you be sure he existed in the first place? Is it through deductive logic? Where in the Quran is gravity mentioned or thermodynamics? Does it mean that we as Muslims can't believe in the gravity or thermodynamics? Obviously not. You are taking probable doubt beyond a reasonable level.

on October 18, 2005 1:27 AM
Rashid said

4. Where in the Quran is Abraham Lincoln mentioned? How can you be sure he existed in the first place? Is it through deductive logic? Where in the Quran is gravity mentioned or thermodynamics? Does it mean that we as Muslims can't believe in the gravity or thermodynamics? Obviously not. You are taking probable doubt beyond a reasonable level.

Abraham Lincoln lays in his grave, you can visit it and you will read his name on the grave stone.
The law of gravity can be proven scientifically through testing the words in the material world, so can thermodynamics, words of men that can not be proven in the world around us except through words of others who we chose to trust is no proof at all, but belief and with belief : someone can believe my father has 9 toes, it does not mean it is true except if one is so unjust to prove me wrong and goes and cuts it off his foot.

on October 18, 2005 3:14 AM
Rashid said

Allah is greater(Allahu Akbar)

on October 18, 2005 3:23 AM
jinnzaman said

Exactly, just like Abraham Lincoln was buried, so are the Sahabah (ra) buried and we know where their graves are. So it would be illogical to presume that a Sahabi like Anas ibn Malik (ra) who recorded hadeeth in the presence of the Prophet (saw) and then reviewed it with him did not exist. Again, if you claim hadeeth are illegitimate because the Sahabah (ra) disobeyed the Prophet (saw) and invented hadeeth (naudhubillah!), then why accept the Quran since it has been transmitted through the same people? (ie the Sahabah and the Ulema)

on October 18, 2005 1:47 PM
jinnzaman said

Shaykh Abdal Qadir al Jilani says:

O my people! Prove the sincerity of your respect for the Qur'an by putting its teachings into practice, not by arguing about it.
[The Sublime Revelation, Tr. Muhtar Holland]
www.sunnipath.com

Alhumdillah, I believe that all of the points of argument have been addressed and now we are just going in circles. As such, I will withdraw from this discussion.

May everyone benefit greatly from this blessed month of Ramadhan and may Allah (swt) accept your fasts. Ameen.

masalama

on October 18, 2005 1:50 PM
Rashid said

""-Again, if you claim hadeeth are illegitimate because the Sahabah (ra) disobeyed the Prophet (saw) and invented hadeeth (naudhubillah!), then why accept the Quran since it has been transmitted through the same people? ""

Why do you accusing me of such a thing?

Listen what i said is, people disobeyed the prophet by writing the ahadith down because he ordered the burning of his written ahadith during his life time, after he died some started to write his sayings down again. Alot of false ahadith exist and to the day of today some get made true and others false by "religious super scholars" i am sure this has been done throughout history, whenever a leader sees fit his religious scholars can make up stuff to legitimize his actions or his political striving. Make some ahadith true other false, and kill those who are too rebelious against their lies. 1400 years is a long time my friend. Wake up.

on October 18, 2005 5:29 PM
Rashid said

""So it would be illogical to presume that a Sahabi like Anas ibn Malik (ra) who recorded hadeeth in the presence of the Prophet (saw) and then reviewed it with him did not exist.""

Yeah well you trust the people who tell you this as being the fact and truth, what your trust is based on i leave in the middle, i however do not trust people with my deen, Allah alone can guide or lead astray this is true, but we can not deny that people can lie deceive and be wrong, even you and even the one you trusted, see christians also trust their people when they tell them Jesus died on the cross and then show it to them in the bible, atleast for them i can make an excuse (it says so in the bible) but as for muslims who have the book of Allah with them unaltered and still give preference to the word of men into making them believe whole verses of the koran are abrogated(do not count anymore) because of the words they accepted as being the truth instead of holding to what Allah revealed and left in existance , then i tell you these have no excuse.

on October 18, 2005 8:17 PM
asef said

Salaam:

I am still single...Alhamdulillah.

Next time when you come to California, give me a heads up, I can arrange for a deep sea trip to fish some Salmons...provided you wont get sea sick...and if you have family and friends, bring them along, we can all go together, insha'Allah

By the way I have a side question, someone from a medical background may be able to help:

When an Open Heart surgery is complete, what does the surgeon do to seal the heart such that no blood leaks through. I mean it cant be the stitches, since they probably cannot hold the tissues together to prevent high pressure of blood being pumped through the heart...I am really curious.

Jazakum Allah Khairan for you reply.
Ma'Assalaama

on October 19, 2005 12:59 AM
Rashid said

"When an Open Heart surgery is complete, what does the surgeon do to seal the heart such that no blood leaks through. I mean it cant be the stitches, since they probably cannot hold the tissues together to prevent high pressure of blood being pumped through the heart...I am really curious."

That is done by the power of Allah and the knowledge He gave to men to do so. If you wish to know exactly how this is done, i suggest you study."Iqra" and follow the first sunnah of The Prophet, The first word that was made to come down on him from Allah. How can one say that he follows the prophet when he does not even implement his first sunnah? Iqra, and if you can not then Iqra(learn)

on October 19, 2005 2:36 AM
Rashid said

By the way, the koran says that the prophet is "al ummiyy" this is translated as being illiterate....why do you fail to see the connection between the word "ummah" and "ummiyy" (The One Nationer) or (he who makes into one nation or community)

on October 19, 2005 2:53 AM
Rashid said

Jew, Christian or "muslim"....all who work to achieve the peace with The One and Only god through their deeds and words, these are the faithful, this ofcourse means accepting the truth when it comes to you and this is done purely for Him, it does not mean that those who accepts the truth will all be the same, Allah created us different.

Working to achieve the peace with Him is islaam, the only way He accepts is if the work done is done for the sake of Him being pleased in other words for the sake of the peace with Him.

Why i put muslim in " " is because it is an arabic name, these people here do not know arabic or it's meaning so it has become a label because they do not know the arabic language so they do not know the meaning of it, instead of saying: "i am one of who submit for the sake of Peace", muslimeen in arabic, we have made it neither arabic nor english when we say "muslims" we mixed one language with the other and invented the name "muslims" we took the "een(which means one in dutch)" from the word muslimeen and stuck an "s" to it. Not a word in english nor in arabic, just a label and we seem happy to wear a label that has no meaning in either language. It reflects being stuck between two worlds and not knowing wich way to go, Allah made us different people and with different languages...He is truely The Rich, so why this conflict? is it really based on truth you think? Or is it 'adaawa(enmity) which has a connection to the word 'aada which means "return", (to return to things of the past to justify hostility in the present). What makes people think that people have no possibility to change their course? has not alot of injustice come to an end? indeed we need to improve on justice, because our own existance depends on it, the unjust came to an end look into history and those who improved on it kept on existing. Learn from history, as others did before you, and do a mending work may Allah preserve you. Nothing will remain on earth except your works and their effect on those who come after you, so strive to leave the world behind in a better state then when you came into it, it is for your deeds that you shall be rewarded.

on October 19, 2005 3:16 AM
Justoju said

"these people here do not know arabic"

br. Rashid, I think its either highly naive or highly arrogant for one to assume that one has the highest command of arabic in the room. We have students of Al-Azhar present on this board. Some of the arabic points you make are commonly known (and taught) and should not be held as proof of the superiority (or sophistication) of your methodology. You throw them in randomly, yet fail to answer the objections that have been raised to your points. There are world EXPERTS in classical arabic who would highly disagree with some of the aqeedah conclusions you arrive to. You trump your intelligence and cause up by squabbling over linguistic technicalities that hold little significance in the greater picture of this discussion. I would love to see you pick up a classical text (from the first generation of Islam), that doesnt have tashkeel, and give an exegesis on it. Forget exegesis, I would love to see how many of the words you truly understand when the harakah and dots are taken off (which were, btw, not originally part the quran and whose existence is accredited to PEOPLE).

So you understand some arabic and are excited by this new-found depth in the quran. Hate to tell you, but traditionally all scholars (who you deny) HAD TO learn classical arabic in all its dimensions before they could learn anything else. These people spent their waking moments speaking, hearing, and breathing quranic arabic. Entire volumes of books have been written by arabic scholars explaining the beauty and arabic complexity and elegance of something like a single ayah of the Quran. You think you have more knowledge of the Quran or its arabic? Have some modesty.

I agree with jinnzaman, all the points have been covered. If Br. Rashid decides not to read the material then thats between him and Allah. His arguments have been refuted by scholars time and time again throughout the centuries, but Quran-Only'ers (as well as some other groups) usually remove themselves so deeply from any kind of history (despite the Quran's emphases upon its importance) and evolution of religious methodology, that they fail to see that their slogan is barely an original one and fail to read the highly effective refutations that have been put across regarding them in the past. Historically, parts of the ummah keep on going in circles and repeating past mistakes/heresies due to a lack of knowledge of their effective resolution in the past. The same slogans pop up, are refuted, are resolved, are forgotton, and then pop up again. Its getting old.

I am not as much into reform as I am into revival of the traditional path. The majority of Muslim scholars for the majority of time were NEVER wrong or lost or misguided. People who think that usually do so because they:

1) have suddenly realized something beautiful in the deen,

2) blame their muslim society for their own previous ignorance ("why didnt they TELL me I was supposed to be looking at it like THIS!"),

3) become bitter and assume that for 1400 years muslim society has always been wrong and misguided and has failed to see what they, with their superior intelligence, now see. They assume that the reason muslims are in bad shape in terms of duniya today is not because they havent been following the traditional path, but because the traditional path itself is incorrect and misguided.

4) cut themselves off from traditional learning (whose road they never seriously bothered travelling or immersing themselves in)

5) aim for 'reform', look down upon all muslims as being misguided sheep, and begin the task of reinventing the wheel by starting from scratch (which wouldnt be so laughable if any of these people were learned experts in the fields that they attempt to illucidate...which sadly they arent).

on October 19, 2005 4:34 AM
jinnzaman said

Bismillah.

Assalamu alaikum

May this reach you all in the best state of health and iman.

I agree with Justoju. Their hasn't been an adequate response to the refutations that have been posted. A logical person with some humility at this point would revoke their deviant views that imply that the Sahabah (ra) disobeyed RasulAllah (saw), the Ulema have fabricated hadeeth, and that the Ummah, as a whole, has been deviant for over 1400 years in its use and application of hadeeth.

It also seems contradictory to me to use hadeeth whenever it suits one's argument, but reject them as a general rule. This is a paradoxical usool.

May Allah (swt) guide us to the straight path and keep us firm. Ameen.

on October 19, 2005 1:49 PM
Fatwa said

Question :

Is it permissible to write (S) or (SAWS) etc when mentioning the Prophet SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), instead of writing out the blessing in full?.


Answer :

Praise be to Allaah.

What is prescribed is to write “salla Allaahu ‘alayhi wa salaam (May Allaah send blessings and peace upon him)” in full, and not to write it in abbreviated form, such as writing (S) or (SAWS) etc.

Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn Baaz (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

As it is prescribed to send blessings upon the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) in prayer when saying the tashahhud, and it is prescribed when giving khutbahs, saying du’aa’ and praying for forgiveness, and after the adhaan, and when entering and exiting the mosque, and when mentioning him in other circumstances, so it is more important to do so when writing his name in a book, letter, article and so on. So it is prescribed to write the blessing in full so as to fulfil the command that Allaah has given to us, and so that the reader will remember to say the blessing when he reads it. So we should not write the blessing on the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) in short form such as writing (S) or (SAWS) etc, or other forms that some writers use, because that is going against the command of Allaah in His Book, where He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Send your Salaah on (ask Allaah to bless) him (Muhammad), and (you should) greet (salute) him with the Islamic way of greeting (salutation, i.e. As‑Salaamu ‘Alaykum)”

[al-Ahzaab 33:56]
And that (writing it in abbreviated form) does not serve that purpose and is devoid of the virtue of writing “salla Allaahu ‘alayhi wa salaam (May Allaah send blessings and peace upon him)” in full. Moreover the reader may not take notice of it and may not understand what is meant by it. It should also be noted that the symbol used for it is regarded as disapproved by the scholars, who warned against it.


Islam Q&A (www.islam-qa.com)

on October 19, 2005 3:24 PM
Justoju said

whoever this fatwa dude is he really needs to learn how to pick his battles.

1. We are trying to deal with people who dont believe in hadith. Please prioritize.

2. There is valid difference of opinion on the (SAW) issue within the sunni schools and so it should not be a matter of contention/division.

on October 19, 2005 3:55 PM
asef said

Salaam:

As I said earlier, there is no need to further this discussion as its only aggravating the people on this board.

In Ramadaan especially, (may this be a reminder for myself 1st), we must not provoke or bring about a situation that is uncomfortable to muslims (or any other creature for that matter).

All I have seen in the past few days is folks getting more and more agitated with this topic and the resulting comments are edging towards anger and frustration.

I suggest that for the sake of this Blessed month of Ramdaan, lets not engage in issues that will bring about our weaknesses. We are all humans and lets help each other to Please Allah during this month, as we all need HIS Maghfirah!

May Allah bless you all, and allow us to get closer and closer to HIM and His Rida...Ameen

Ma'Assalaama

on October 19, 2005 3:57 PM
Rashid said

Justoju, about your comment about tashkeel being added later on, i swear by Allah i have developed my own way of prunouncement. Why? for some reason the shakl in surat al fatiha did not feel like it should be (atleast for me) so i tried some new ways in an effort to not feel like i am doing wrong( wrong because i felt it was not the correct way to prunounce it) especially the shakl on the last letter of each sentance of surat al fatihah.

I fear Allah alone and out of this i act, who are you to judge me according to the ways of men?

on October 19, 2005 5:00 PM
Rashid said

The peace is upon who follow the guidance.

on October 19, 2005 5:01 PM
gillette said

"Justoju, about your comment about tashkeel being added later on, i swear by Allah i have developed my own way of prunouncement. Why? for some reason the shakl in surat al fatiha did not feel like it should be (atleast for me) so i tried some new ways in an effort to not feel like i am doing wrong( wrong because i felt it was not the correct way to prunounce it) especially the shakl on the last letter of each sentance of surat al fatihah."

This is sarcasm, right? I'm sorry, I'm very slow.

on October 19, 2005 6:09 PM
gillette said

Funny Isn't it?

- Funny how a $20 bill looks so big when you take it to the Mosque, but so small when you take it to the market.

- Funny how long it takes to do Zikr [sic] for an hour, but how quickly a team plays 60 minutes of basketball.
- Funny how long a couple of hours spent at the Mosque are, but how short they are when watching a movie.

- Funny how we can't think of anything to say when we pray, but don't have difficulty thinking of things to talk about to a friend.

- Funny how we get thrilled when a baseball game goes into extra innings, but we complain when a "Tarahvi" [sic] [Taraweeh] during Ramadhan is longer than the regular time.

- Funny how hard it is to read a Para [juz] in the Quran, but how easy it is to read 100 pages of a best selling novel.

- Funny how people want to get a front seat at any game or concert, but scramble to get a back row at mosque so that they can scramble out fast.

- Funny how we need 2 or 3 weeks advance notice to fit a Mosque event into our schedule, but can adjust our schedule for other events at the last moment.

- Funny how hard it is for people learn a simple Preaching well enough to tell others, but how simple it is for the same people to understand and repeat gossip.

- Funny how we believe what the newspaper says, but question what the Quran says.

- Funny how everyone wants to go to heaven provided they do not have to believe, or to think, or to say, or do anything.

- Funny how you can send a thousand 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire, but when you start sending messages regarding Allah, people think twice about sharing.

FUNNY, ISN'T IT?

Are you laughing? Are you thinking?
Give thanks to Allah for He is good & Mercifull!

By Sister Zarina

http://johnw.host.sk/articles/touching_misc_mustreading/funny_isn.htm

on October 19, 2005 6:11 PM
asef (to Sis Justoju) said

Salaam Ukhti:

I know this may be difficult, but do not be provoked by fruitless comments towards you by a (certain person).

Silence will suffice, Insha'Allah.

Ma'Assalaama

on October 19, 2005 6:30 PM
Rashid said

I made the mistake of being worried, worried for the people who adhere to strict religious doctrines in small countries where such adherance and then preaching against the society in which they live causes tentions and a hostile atmosphere, in the US it is not as problematic as in small countries, the youths from other countries do not feel being stuck between 2 cultutes because the US is welcoming and made up out of different cultures. While in europe there is already an existing culture and the formation of a culture that is even more strict then the culture of the parents of these youths which preaches towards conflict is seen as threatening by most of the europeans, i hold the opinion that the islamic society should be a source of safety in the societies they choose to live in, and not a source of mistrust and a problem. I came here with my views on the koran and all this i did without having a premade plan, or an agenda i am submitted to Allah...so even my worries are under His will. I came with the message that the quran should be held above anyone elses words.

I wish you a blessed month, the month of ramadhaan in which Allah sent down the koran for mankind to remind those who fear Him, and a guidance and healing.

on October 19, 2005 6:33 PM
jinnzaman said

Our Ummah needs to revive the study of Aqeedah.

on October 19, 2005 10:12 PM
Justoju said

word.

on October 20, 2005 12:39 AM
Talal said

With that last "word", the discussion on this topic ends. Any further discussion should take place off Hidaya, with any more postings related to this being dutifully deleted (yes, dutifully).

Br. Rashid, I advise that you re-read the article above these comments...

for our whims and desires
serve only to stoke the fires

on October 20, 2005 1:17 AM
Rami said

Asalaam Aleikum Warahmatullah Wabarakatu,

Surat Al-Fatihah

Verse 1: "Alalameen" is a plural noun and that is majroor because it is a 'moodaf elayhi' (possentional object). The moodaff elayhi that is plural is majroor with a 'ya'. Because it is plural, the 'nuun' is given a fatha to distinguish it from a muthanna (consisting of two people) noun. If it were "lord of the two worlds' than it would be "alalameeni". But "Lord of the worlds" is "alalameenu".

Verse 2: "Alrahmaan" and "Alraheem" are 'majroor' with a kasra because they are the object ofa preposition -- the "laam" of 'lil-lah'. the "lah" "rubb" "rahman" "raheem" and "mallik" are all objects of the "laam"

Verse 3: "Aldeen" is majroor with a Kasra because it is also a mudaaf elayhi -- a possenional object of "yawm". Day (yawm) OF THE religion(deen).

Verse 4: "Nastaeenu" is marfua with a dumma because it is a present tense verse. "faal mudarra murfuwa"

Verse 5: "Almustaqeem" is mansoob with a fatha because it is an adjective (siffa)that takes the same tashkeel as "sirat" which is a mafool bihi (object of a verb).

verse 6: "aldaleen" is is majroor with a "ya" and mansoob with a fatha because it is amatoof (tied to) ghayr and is a naat.


on October 20, 2005 1:25 AM
Justoju (posting on topic of br. Rami's i'raab and not on topic of fitna) said

MashaAllah :)

on October 20, 2005 1:47 AM
Rami (commenting on Sr. Justoju's comment and also not trying to make any fitnah so please dont dele said

Asalaam Aleikum Warahamatullah Wabarakatu,

Masha Allah, you are correct. But not for me...for my teacher Ahmed in Egypt. I had to ask him alot of questions because I forgot so much.

So I would do like any sane person and I called him up in Egypt to help me out. But I really wanted to talk to him anyway for Ramadan so the questions were really only secondary.

on October 20, 2005 1:54 AM
Justoju said

hey br. Rami, how did the adjustment period go when you returned to the West? What helped ease it?

on October 20, 2005 2:24 AM
Justoju said

the irony of this moment:

I had Papazzi's Pizza iftar buffet yesterday and think I might have gotten food poisoning (been having stomach pains all morning long). So I was in skills class a few minutes ago and started having flashes of stomach pain so I asked if I could go to the sisters lounge so that I could take my niqab off and lie down. The pain wasnt going away so I decided to go online to distract myself. And here I am...talking about arabic like a dumb loser when I should be in class learning it.

Astaghfirullah.

Ok, I am going back to class. Wsalaam peeps.

on October 20, 2005 2:31 AM
Rami said

Asalaam Aleikum Warahmatullah Wabarakatu,

"hey br. Rami, how did the adjustment period go when you returned to the West? What helped ease it?""


Ahh...where do I begin.

But actually, I also (really) need to be studying but happen to occasionaly get hooked on hidaya.

Very briefly:

What helped ease it?...The fact that I prayed istikhaara before making the decision to stay.

on October 20, 2005 2:39 AM
Talal said

p.s.
Further discussion on Ahzab(Part II), and other pertinent digressions shall not be subjected to previous mandate.

EIC out.

on October 20, 2005 2:53 AM
asef said

Salaam Br. Talal:

Whats EIC?

In my company, we have EIC = Engineer In Charge!

Ma'Assalaama

on October 20, 2005 9:07 AM
Justoju (still not posting on topic of fitna) said

EIC= Editor in Chief

on October 20, 2005 11:34 AM
gillette said

What [reputable] Islamic institutions are there for women in the major cities of knowledge?

on October 20, 2005 11:57 AM
Justoju said

women only?

on October 20, 2005 12:01 PM
gillette said

Would anyone offer mixed ones?

on October 20, 2005 4:23 PM
Talal said

I think she meant if you're asking for a women's only institution (i.e. Umm Al Qura in Makkah accepts both men and women).

on October 20, 2005 4:43 PM
gillette said

I meant any resource...the major scholars never necessarily had to teach at a university for muslims to benefit from them; universities help, but they're not the end all of islamic education

on October 20, 2005 5:56 PM
Justoju said

I dont know about the rest of the world, but in terms of what I have seen in damascas and amman, there are TONS of women's-only classes. The reason for that is that women who have formal ijaazas understand that now it is incumbent upon them to share what they have learned with the rest of their gender...and so they dont just sit on their ijaaza after marriage (unless they really, truly ARE busy with their domestic life). There is always some lady in the neighborhood who you can sit with for tajweed, or fiqh, or whatever else. There are female alimaas that know their stuff. And if you choose to sit with a male sheikh, it is never a problem because there is always complete segregation. Even at Qasid (which is only for arabic) they often put the boys and girls in separate classrooms; and when they dont, they have a divider up so that the two genders cant see each other (half the women wear niqab anyway).

I'll try to find out more. I know that in Yemen they have the "Dar Al-Zahra" which is for women only and focuses on the diff. islamic sciences (though the classes are all taught in arabic so it is more accessible for a woman after she has some fussha under her belt).

on October 20, 2005 10:57 PM
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